30-06-2004 23:17									#1
	Gaian Strategy and Roleplay and Meta Tired of ads?

There has been some discussion of our overall strategy and roleplay in various places. I feel we need a thread to organize and plan our overall strategy, so here it is. Some big questons that have arisen:

• How much to Roleplay vs. Go for the Win
  
• How to terraform
  
• How to explore the fungus
  
• How to find our neighbors
  

Meta-gaming is the practice of playing a game with knowledge outside the game itself, IE how the other teams think, how our own process affects our chances, etc.. Meta-gaming is good for winning games, but might be a bit incompatible with strict role-play. Let's discuss.

From the Borehole Thread :

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Well I'm not a Gaian now so I can't take part in your decision of roleplay/gameplay style. I was merely pointing out there is another way to interpret the Gaians, as what I laid out when I was a Gaian. Others are afraid of the planet. They are afraid of the fungus and the mindworms. But the Gaians love the planet, they love the fungus and the mindworms. Fungus is native to the planet, forests are foreign. Ecodamage is earth thinking, not planet thinking. When fungus pops, others think the planet is angry. But Gaians encourages fungus pops, they eat fungus, use fungas, they even plant fungus. They do not seek a green planet, they seek a red planet. Others fear mindworms. They panic when mindworms spung out. The Gaians cheers when they meet mindworms. They capture mindworms, use mindworms, hunt mindworms, they even brood mindworms. I know this is novice thinking about the Gaians. Perhaps nobody has ever viewed Gaians this way. But if you do not want to lag behind in game and still want to roleplay the Gaians, this could be an interesting way to go.

As I was saying over there, this is good strategy to win the game, and is a convenient way to use role-play to cover up a strong Gaian strategy. Here's how I view the Gaians:

They think they want to get along with Planet, but don't know what they are doing. They are surprised every step of the way that Planetmind wants to meld with them. They are surprised that their Forests are only somewhat compatible with native life. They are surprised that their knack for terraforming is generally viewed as hostile by planet. A gaian in 2101 has a very different outlook than a gaian near transcendence. They would be terrified of the prospect, but curious. All along the way they must face facts and learn to adapt their green-thumbs into red-thumbs. It's a dangerous path, and full of controversy.

What's really strange to me about Smac is that Tree Farms and Hybrids reduce ecodamage. These really should have been Fungus Farms and Hybrid Flora. And there should have been a terrain feature to represent both Earth Trees, and Planet Hybrids. But that aside, we must assume that Trees are o.k. with Planetmind, that they can work together. Thus the Gaian 'Forest Strategy' for roleplay and even a decent strategy for gaming.

Boreholes are violations of planet. They are the worst possible thing you could do to a living planet, terraforming-wise. Fungal-net: interupted. Local rainfall: disrupted. Climate changed irrevocably. But still, boreholes are the gamer's friend, so arises the 'Forest + Borehole' gaming strategy, which works just as well for Gaians as for any other faction, untill the very very late game when fungus becomes useful.

It's easy to roleplay any behaviour we wish to adopt, as HongHu has demonstrated with her ideas above. But is it a good practice? I suggest that we decide now whether to go for a true role-play of the Gaians or a role-play in hindsight type strategy. I believe we can win either way. A role-play centered faction would make decisions based on what we think 'real' Gaians would do. This will sometimes not seem like the best gaming strategy. But we will win respect and have a **** of a good time!

If we do play in a RP centered way, I don't see that a few early boreholes would be that bad. After all, we are attempting to learn about Planet, and we don't know what the heck we are doing. But after our first communication with Planetmind, and especially after our first Pop!, I think we should role-play a re-evaluation of our terraforming. We would then know that planet does not like ecodamage. We might role-play a discussion with planet and justify some ecodamage in one particular base, especially if we give back to planet in some other way.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm perfectly willing to go along with a Gamer's strategy rather than a strict RP strategy. I do hope that people see what we are missing though, if we go with the gaming strategy. I know we can win with an RP strategy. I've seen it done. We might even encourage the same with other teams. It's great fun and costs nothing. It's a game after all. We have some very strong players here, and some strong role-players. Let's get the best of both worlds.

-Smack

	30-06-2004 23:30									#2
	Re: Gaian Strategy and Roleplay and Meta Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by smacksim Let's get the best of both worlds.

	01-07-2004 00:31									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Well said smacksim.

	01-07-2004 05:48									#4
	Re: Gaian Strategy and Roleplay and Meta Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by smacksim Meta-gaming is the practice of playing a game with knowledge outside the game itself, IE how the other teams think, how our own process affects our chances, etc.. Meta-gaming is good for winning games, but might be a bit incompatible with strict role-play. Let's discuss. As I've said elsewhere, I'm perfectly willing to go along with a Gamer's strategy rather than a strict RP strategy. I do hope that people see what we are missing though, if we go with the gaming strategy. I know we can win with an RP strategy. I've seen it done. We might even encourage the same with other teams. It's great fun and costs nothing. It's a game after all. We have some very strong players here, and some strong role-players. Let's get the best of both worlds.

I am more in line with the Gamer's viewpoint, as thats simply the way I've always played my Gaians. I was also very heavily recruited to the Gaian Faction by Honghu (who I take is no longer a Gaian - what the heck happened there!?!) because she wanted to "see how I play Gaians", and I made the statement up front to her that unless my method is implemented from the first, it won't work. Now this is not to say that I am inflexible on the point of how we play our Gaians, it is more to say that my style simply can't be "turned on" at a later time if the path we take turns out not to be working for us in this game. I'll also state that if we take more of an RP approach to the game, that I will be out of my element, as I've never really played my Gaians that way. If we do go this route, why I'll probably take more of an observers role in this game, just so I can see how you guys play the Faction in this manner, as I might pick up some valuable tips. I might also be used as a decoy to the other Factions in this manner, as there are some players on the other teams that have gotten a good taste of how I play my Gaians in other PBEM's (usually the last transmissions from their HQ's before they are submerged is, "I'll get you for this Darsnan! gurgle gurlge gurgle....."), and they'll be on guard for my playstyle. Hitting them with a more RP style of Gaians might catch them offguard!
I'll end my discussion in RP fashion: IMO lifeforms adapt to their surroundings, or they die, or are replaced by creatures who have better adapted themselves to their surroundings - Darwin's "Survival of the Fittest" philosophy. We now find ourselves on a hostile alien world with whatever we could salvage from the Unity before she broke up, and so are marooned here with almost no hope of rescue or resupply from Earth. Whats worse, there is evidence that our arch-nemesis, the Morganites have made Planetfall as well! We all know that these people are a "cancer" upon any sentient race, as they gobble up resources indescrimenently and only pollute their environment in return. And the best way to kill a "cancer" of this nature? Chemotherapy! I say let us ingest this "chemotherapy", which would equate to heavy industrialization, as it will sooner kill the "cancer", even if in the short term it "makes us sick".

Lord Darsnan

	01-07-2004 06:16									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: (usually the last transmissions from their HQ's before they are submerged is, "I'll get you for this Darsnan! gurgle gurlge gurgle.....")

death by drowning heh. I would love to see Darsnan do his strategy. It would make the game very fun to watch.

	01-07-2004 06:35									#6
	Re: Re: Gaian Strategy and Roleplay and Meta Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Darsnan "I'll get you for this Darsnan! gurgle gurlge gurgle

quote: I was also very heavily recruited to the Gaian Faction by Honghu (who I take is no longer a Gaian - what the heck happened there!?!)

I've transcended, Lord Darsnan. I'll still be able to watch how you play though, as a narrator.

	01-07-2004 07:10									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well good. I'm glad this is bringing some things to the front. Darsnan, you were accepted under the terms that we play Gaia your way? I will be among the T-1 observers then. I don't mean to sound harsh. It's writing this batch file that's got me all loopy, that and a Gaian tonic. But what the **********! If Darsnan was accepted under absolut-dictator terms, then what the hell am I doing discussing strategy? I apologize for not understanding. I thought we we're acting in all aspects as a collective? Now if you've overstated yourself, then let's discuss. Otherwise I relegate myself to the 'Chiron Gardening Tips' department for now, to stage a coup d'etat later, gardening fork and everything

-S

Last edited by smacksim on 01-07-2004 at 07:30

	01-07-2004 07:22									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Relax, it's a democracy game. Even if he did have some sort of dictatorial powers, I play the turns, and I don't know anything about such powers, nor would I if told.

	01-07-2004 07:28									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hic. I see I over-read your statement. You were accepted after explaining that it's your way or your not-way. I vote for number 2 in that case. Most of the fun for me is working as a team to come to agreements on our operations. You can compromise and make group decisions, can't you? I mean, surely, a dictator has the most effective style for a game like this. Committee decisions lead to watered down actions. But we have a bazillion Pbems for playing as God over one's faction of choice. I thought the ACDG was for playing together, despite, or perhaps, because of this 'flaw'. Again, I apologize if I misunderstood when I signed up.

Smack's position: If you can't share decision-making, then I think it would be better to be an observer. I just think you are overstating your position though. If I'm way off in thinking that there are other members who would like a part in strategic planning and operations, then I'm way off. But if there are more than 1 or 2, don't you think it would be the most fun if we all tried to discuss operations?

-Smack

	01-07-2004 08:49									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sorry, perhaps I'd better explain, for I was the one that tried to get Darsnan here.

The reason I tried to get Darsnan is because he is a good Gaian player and I told Darsnan that I would love to see how he plays. What Darsnan told to me is that his strategy would need to be implemented from the beginning for it to work. I did not interpret that this means by accepting Darsnan into the Gaians we have already predetermined our strategy. Instead I understood it that we would have a discussion about different strategies, as what smacksim and Darsnan is doing right now, and then we'll choose one collectively. The only tibit that needs to be emphasized from Darsnans words is that his strategy only works if we apply it consistently, rather than switching to it later in the game.

I have not even relayed Darsnan's message to the team, for I knew that we would be discussing strategies when the game was about to start. Which is exactly what happened.

So I don't really see anybody said anything about absolut-dictator or god. So yes smacksim, I think you have misunderstood Darsnan and overreacted.

	01-07-2004 09:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A demo game is harder than a pbem, in the sense that it is not real easy for people to understand each other and reach agreement. Especially in the very beginning, when people do not know each other well. Many players are very experienced and able, and each of them may easily beat many others. However it often so happens the result of the demo game may be worse than a single person pbem, because often time less optimal choices are made and implemented due to many possible reasons.

In my mind, this is ok. To win is not the sole purpose of a game. In a demo game people are exposed to many ways of thinking and doing things, they learn strategics, they learn techniques, and most importantly, they learn about each other. It is very likely that one's idea and ideology does not get to be adopted by the team because when there are many options, and some of them are contradicting to each other, well obviously only one choice can be made. There are many roads in ones life. Some may be easier, some may be harder. One can only choose one road, and will never know what would be the result of choosing another road. But that's ok. As long as we have each other, we are walking the road together, it doesn't really matter if it is a smooth road, or a rough one. The most important thing is, we stand for each other, we rely upon each other, we are proud of each other.

This is what I learnt from the demo game.

	01-07-2004 09:19									#12
	Put an end to popups!

Who me overreact? Never!

Well, now that my batch file is almost written, I'm a bit more relaxed. I also agree with the strategic point of view that if we are going to adopt a strategy, it's best to do it wholesale and throughout the game, almost no matter what that strategy may be. I'd like to find out what everyone has in mind....?

Despite my antics, I'm quite open minded. I will go a little nutty if I see us closing our doors prematurely on possibilities. I see an opportunity to make strategy with other players. Several people could write a book on exactly how to play the Gaians strategically. But where's the fun in following a book? And the best strategies are fluid anyways. Sun Tsu never says 'And put your mindworms right there, every time'. He says things like

quote: 'Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.'

So, what are people's strategic plans?

How do you feel about RPlay and Strategy? Are they at odds, or is it possible to have the best of both?

-Smack

	01-07-2004 09:32									#13
	Got spare money?

Oh yeah, I believe it is possible to have the best of both. Problem is that not everybody's "best" is the same. So there, you need compromises. One of my colleague said, "In a compromise nobody is really satisfied. They just all have less degree of disatisfaction."

	01-07-2004 15:31									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by smacksim Darsnan, you were accepted under the terms that we play Gaia your way? -S

No. what I was emphasizing was that my style cannot simply be turned on and off like a spiggot. Either we play that way from the start, or we don't attempt that avenue at all. By no means am I dictating how we play.


D

	01-07-2004 15:33									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Darsnan No. what I was emphasizing was that my style cannot simply be turned on and off like a spiggot. Either we play that way from the start, or we don't attempt that avenue at all. By no means am I dictating how we play. D

I suggest you post details of you style in detail here (not all know it).

	01-07-2004 18:29									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by obstructor I suggest you post details of you style in detail here (not all know it).

I know that I had posted this info in our temporary forum, and that we had had some good discussions, both for and against, in response to it. I'll see about posting something once I get home and have all my notes handy.
However, after thinking about the whole ACDG concept for a while now, why I am thinking that as a whole this is not necessarily something that is really my cup of tea. Originally I had signed on to CMN this ACDG, and creating games is something I specialize in, and as the current generation of players can attest, I am really good at. It is a labour of love that I really enjoy doing. Participating in the ACDG, though, I think is more of a labour for me that does not elicit the same enjoyment, and I find myself struggling to justify to myself the time spent on this project, when I could be contributing to our SMAC(X) Community as a whole by setting up PBEM's, contributing to the CMN's Guide, and working in the Creations Forum, which are things that I naturally enjoy.
Therefore I think it best for everyone that I take a non-active role in the Gaians for this ACDG. This would mean that I would still be a Gaian for this ACDG (if you will still have me), but that it is understood that I will only be contributing sporadically.
My appologies on this, but I do believe that this is the best course of action for me, and for the team.


D

	01-07-2004 18:51									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You offered to send saves of your games. Why don't you post a couple of them here when you have time to do so. And any your contribution is helpful.

	01-07-2004 21:29									#18
	Remove this text

Darsnan, I can honestly say I was hoping to see you take an active role in the ACDG. However, I can fully understand why you don't want to take an active role and half the battle is dealing with a wide variety of other people and individually convincing them of your ideas. Furthermore, it takes alot of your time so it would have to be a labour of love if you wish to take an active role.

Anyway may your conquests and drownings be plentiful. Too bad Bear Baiting was hand carved and hence has alot of high land, I would have enjoyed watching you drown factions.

	01-07-2004 21:34									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well it can still appear that he is an active member.... should confuse our enemies. Lets pretend he is the key member.

	01-07-2004 23:12									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kody I can fully understand why you don't want to take an active role and half the battle is dealing with a wide variety of other people and individually convincing them of your ideas. .

This really isn't it at all. ACDG's have been going on for close to two yewars now, and I have never volunteered once to join any of them. Essentially my original involvement with this ACDG was to be the CMN and set up the game. After numerous people (Googlie, johndmuller, HongHu to name a few) constantly barraged and contacted me about joining the Gaian team why I finally relented. I have followed the Gaian Faction, participated in conversations, and otherwise been a good Gaian. However, my heart really isn't into playing the game in this format (i.e. the ACDG format). When I start having to drag myself to my computer, instead of looking forward to logging on, why it just isn't what I call "fun". I'd rather much more be digging into the nuances of the alphax.txt file, or working on my next Challenge, or setting up the next PBEM - thats what I enjoy, am good at, and look forward to after a long day at work and housechores when I get home at night. And this is the reason I am minimizing my role in this ACDG, so that I can continue to contribute positively to our greater community, in ways that I enjoy.


D

	01-07-2004 23:16									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Darsnan When I start having to drag myself to my computer, instead of looking forward to logging on, why it just isn't what I call "fun". I'd rather much more be digging into the nuances of the alphax.txt file, or working on my next Challenge, or setting up the next PBEM - thats what I enjoy, am good at, and look forward to after a long day at work and housechores when I get home at night. And this is the reason I am minimizing my role in this ACDG, so that I can continue to contribute positively to our greater community, in ways that I enjoy. D

We understand Darsnan, but feel sorry for losing you. Enjoy making mods however .

	01-07-2004 23:47									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Darsnan, please don't be a stranger. I am glad you are still a Gaian and I look forward to your contributing, even if it's only sporadically.

	02-07-2004 00:04									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Darsnan, I'm sorry. I can't beg you to stay, because I have no right. Thanks for everything you did for me and the Gaians.

	02-07-2004 05:13									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Darsnan:

Fair enough, I understand all about the dragging part hey Honghu.

Have fun.

	02-07-2004 08:55									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Bah humbug!

Let's not set limits or goodbye's just yet. Darsnan is invaluable to Apolyton, and seems he will continue to be. Of course I have a big weight here feeling like I tipped you over the edge Darsnan, but I hope you can understand my position too. Strategy is strategy and doesn't need any watering down if it's to work well. This doesn't mean we can't come to strategic planning decisions as a group, but rather that our execution should be razor-sharp. Nonetheless, this doesn't seem to me to be the reason for your stepping back a bit. If you should feel inclined to make strategy or copy old posts over here (I missed your previous explications), I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.

Of all people I should be the last to want to piss you off, and I sincerely hope I haven't. You've been the only one cheering me on with Aldebaran, which has stolen my days and nights.

I'll tell you what bogs me down about the ACDG right here, just in case it compares at all. I don't look forward to wading through countless well-written posts about our background or pledges, or anything of that sort. I've been in places where I'd appreciate all that, but right now all I want is the nitty-gritty discussion of what to DO next. It's also kinda strange reading countless pages of background with all 12 people on the forums only mildly likely to be reading it thoroughly. If we we're bustling in the Smac section, with sign-up lists just to get a peek at Gaia, that'd be one thing. But now, we are the die-hards, and we don't get much in the way of fanmail. So we have to learn what each other appreciates and not bother wasting time creating things in the hope that someone will just amble by soon.

Ramble ramble....

Point is, I like the ACDG, and while I appreciate it's expansiveness, it also feels a little echo-y in here, which can be, umm, depressing. On the other side of the fence are those people who always follow the latest gaming trends and play the latest thing, whether or not it is better than the last thing. I don't miss them at all , which is why it's better here in the hollow booming halls of Gaia.

And as to all the 'countless well-written posts', I do think they are great, just resounding in quiesence.

-Smack