02-07-2004 07:39									#61
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I find the fact that there are gay republicans harder to understand than gay fascists. Fascism is more of a cult than a political philosophy. You can twist it anyway you want. All you have to do is icombine total conformity to the group with hate for different people. To make gay fascism you just don't add intolerence to gays.

	02-07-2004 08:04									#62
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Gay Republicans are those who are openly gay and believe they can work for better support from within the party (nice fantasy that it is).

Other gay Republicans are closeted and want to deny that they are gay. Or they are gay, but do a double-faced talk by denouncing gay behavior and relationships and then engaging in those same things.

	02-07-2004 08:21									#63
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Gay Republicans, like all gay people I imagine have issues they care about besides their sexuality. Like the economy, or defense, or something.

They are just republicans who are gay. Get over it.

	02-07-2004 08:27									#64
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Advantages of Libertarianism

- Purity of Freedom

Advantages of Fascism

- Purity of Opression

Advantages of Libertarian Fascism

- Purity of Opressive Freedom
- Purity of Free Opression

Eh?

Last edited by St Leo on 02-07-2004 at 08:32

	02-07-2004 08:27									#65
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Just as Gay Democrats care about issues besides their sexuality, but they still do care about the issues that go with living as a gay person in United States.


get over it

	02-07-2004 08:31									#66
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I never said anything about gay democrats.

Honestly I don't care about what political party gays join. I don't like folks trying to pigeon hole any demographic into one party or the other.

	02-07-2004 08:32									#67
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Exactly -- which is why with the examples I used, I did not claim those to be the only examples.

	02-07-2004 08:53									#68
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Wow, thats a fascinating article.

I have been enriched and stimulated by Apolyton.

	02-07-2004 09:36									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon How can you be a libertarian fascist, Thorn?

Easy, they march out of step

	02-07-2004 14:44									#70
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@ AH

	02-07-2004 16:34									#71
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I never understood how democrats and leftists exist. Their views are in such contradiction with the world it is stunning. Their existence puzzles me.

	02-07-2004 16:42									#72
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How could a moral claim be in contradiction with the world? Moral claims aren't about the world, they are prescriptive rather than descriptive.

	02-07-2004 17:19									#73
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Moral claims have to function to be valid. In this case communism can't function because it is a fatally flawed theory.

	02-07-2004 17:53									#74
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quote: I never understood how democrats and leftists exist. Their views are in such contradiction with the world it is stunning. Their existence puzzles me.

Do elaborate...

quote: Moral claims have to function to be valid. In this case communism can't function because it is a fatally flawed theory.

Firstly, communism in the truest sense is not a moral theory... it has implications which people can twist into a moral theory. Secondly, you fail to show how communism has failed. For sure Stalinism failed, but that had more faschist elements than communist, I bet Marx was spinning in his grave. Consider that one cannot have simple communism or non-communism, since there are communist elements in even the most capitalist society that requires people to work together cohesively. Read Marx before you make a **** of yourself.

You say that moral claims have to be true but that is your own opinion of morality. I find it hard to accept that you have solved a reciprocal philosophical debate that has been raging since Aristotle . What morality "is" has this tendency to differ from person to person, with the consequence of me laughing incessantly at dogmatists.

	02-07-2004 17:55									#75
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Sigh... remember folks... attack the arguments, NOT the posters.

	02-07-2004 18:00									#76
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I am attacking the arguments. I said leftism is fatally flawed because it does not accept inevitable capitalism. People are inherently capitalist. They like to have an open market to buy and sell goods. Just look at Ebay, a 21st example. And bazaars that have been in the world for centuries. People are naturally capitalist, not communist.

And there are no communist elements existing in a capitalist society. Welfare is not a communist thing. Sorry.

	02-07-2004 18:07									#77
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quote: I am attacking the arguments. I said leftism is fatally flawed because it does not accept inevitable capitalism.

I'm saying that you would have a point if you were describing one political theory, not a big spectrum of them. "Leftism" does, and can accept capitalism, otherwise it's necessary conclusion would be a return to a hunter-gatherer society. Note that "left" and "right" is simply an economic policy that a wise economist in my opinion should use flexibly and not dogmatically. It does not constitute a moral theory on its own, not even a political theory, since theories on the "left" can wildly differ socially... from Stalinism against whom your views are less incorrect, to libertarian communism which works all over the world.

quote: And there are no communist elements existing in a capitalist society. Welfare is not a communist thing. Sorry.

Of course there are... there are communist elements whereever humans cooperate! A word of advice would be to not be so black-and-white about these things.

	02-07-2004 18:06									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Moral claims have to function to be valid. In this case communism can't function because it is a fatally flawed theory.

No they don't. A moral goal can be achieved more or less well. For example, we would like to prevent all murders, but we can't. Same goes for wars.

Similarly, we might want to form a communist society, but be frustrated by lack of technology or human weakness. If that were the case one could still say that a communist society was our moral goal in that it is the standard by which relative achievement is judged.

	02-07-2004 18:11									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I'm saying that you would have a point if you were describing one political theory, not a big spectrum of them. "Leftism" does, and can accept capitalism, otherwise it's necessary conclusion would be a return to a hunter-gatherer society. Note that "left" and "right" is simply an economic policy that a wise economist in my opinion should use flexibly and not dogmatically. It does not constitute a moral theory on its own, not even a political theory, since theories on the "left" can wildly differ socially... from Stalinism against whom your views are less incorrect, to libertarian communism which works all over the world.

Capitalism in its best senses is the greatest system in the world and cannot be challanged. You must be corrected. Flexibility is only found in capitalism as it uses techniques of the market place, not illogical central control. Libertarian "communism" doesn't exist.

And what is the difference? Leftism? Stalinism? Communism? It is all the same.

quote: Of course there are... there are communist elements whereever humans cooperate! A word of advice would be to not be so black-and-white about these things.

The cooperation is brought along by capitalism, it is a cooperation brought along by capitalism and the market place. Not invalid and non-existent communism. You are right, communism has and never will exist. None of its elements exist either.

	02-07-2004 18:14									#80
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Ugh, this is a dumb played out argument. This'll be my first and last post on the subject.

Given: Marx, in the manifesto, called for a dictator to lead the people toward the ideal state of communist anarchy.
Given: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Therefore: Any person thrown into such a dictator position will *necessarily* be a Stalin, or Pol Pot, or Mao.

	02-07-2004 18:16									#81
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quote: So in other words, you do not understand basic psychology of humans.

Of course I do... it's the people who want to paint the homophobes as gay who do not. Maybe they REALLY want it to be that way, but they really understand nothing at all about human psychology. It's a way for gays to say, ha ha, you are really gay deep down, but has absolutely no basis in fact.

Are racists really black inside? Are sexists really women? Please.

	02-07-2004 18:18									#82
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1) Powerlessness often corrupts as much as power.

2) One can agree with Marx' end without agreeing with Marx' means.

	02-07-2004 18:18									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: So in other words, you do not understand basic psychology of humans. Of course I do... it's the people who want to paint the homophobes as gay who do not. Maybe they REALLY want it to be that way, but they really understand nothing at all about human psychology. It's a way for gays to say, ha ha, you are really gay deep down, but has absolutely no basis in fact.

There has been a study that has shown 80% of homophobes are in fact gay or have gay tendencies. In fact that study was posted on this forum. It is called being brainwashed by religion, feeling guilty and supressing oneself. Then going after gay people.

	02-07-2004 18:21									#84
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quote: There has been a study that has shown 80% of homophobes are in fact gay or have gay tendencies.

I'm calling bullshit... especially since it is coming from you . Any 'studies' that show many homophobes are gay are politically biased and motivated. It makes no sense. Like I said above, are racists really black inside? Are sexists really women? So why are homophobes really gay? Because you think that'd be funny?

Sorry, don't buy it one bit.

	02-07-2004 18:23									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There has been a study that has shown 80% of homophobes are in fact gay or have gay tendencies. I'm calling bullshit... especially since it is coming from you . Any 'studies' that show many homophobes are gay are politically biased and motivated. It makes no sense. Like I said above, are racists really black inside? Are sexists really women? So why are homophobes really gay? Because you think that'd be funny? Sorry, don't buy it one bit.

I call bullshit on you. You are just stating that without evidence. Could you counter my claim with evidence? People like Fred Phelps I bet have had an messed up child hood. Homophobes are really gay/bi and are homophobic because they feel guilty about their true selves. They then towards discrimination of others. Sexual orientation is not uniformly heterosexual in every race.

	02-07-2004 18:26									#86
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You are Emeril should get together...

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

Could you counter my claim with evidence first?

	02-07-2004 18:32									#87
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You have to counter the claim homophobes are gay first. Then I will counter it.

	02-07-2004 18:32									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Sexual orientation is not uniformly heterosexual in every race.

Not in the Aryan race!!!!!!!!!!

	02-07-2004 18:33									#89
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quote: You have to counter the claim homophobes are gay first.

Emeril again: BAM! BAM!

Since you are making the assertion 'homophobes are really gay', the onus of proof is on you.

	02-07-2004 18:34									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You have to counter the claim homophobes are gay first. Emeril again: BAM! BAM! Since you are making the assertion 'homophobes are really gay', the onus of proof is on you.

You said the claim was bullshit first, therefore you must disprove it.