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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
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Bush... debates... 2000. That's all you have to say. |
What, that Gore killed himself in the debate and shot off his own feet? If Gore actually had ANY sense, the debates would not have ended up the way they did. Cheney is not going to make the same blunders. |
Gore was only half the story. Bush held himself in the debates competently, if not spectacularly. He was obviously coached a great deal, and with the low expectations he had to meet, his merely not making a blunder was enough to ease doubts about him and for his campaign to trumpet his performances as great triumphs.
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 You do realize that there are rocket scientists out there who, when you take them out of their element, are really quite dumb. Just because he's a successful lawyer doesn't mean he ain't stupid in other things. |
And you think Edwards is out of his element in this case? 
Bush was out of his element in 2000, again, and did just fine, thanks to...lots of coaching and prep work! That's exactly what they'll do for Edwards. And I'll bet Edwards will be better in his debate performance than Bush was in his.
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If Edwards is stupid it means all lawyers are |
No, but I'm getting the feeling I'm getting to know a stupid lawyer right now.  
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
Bush held himself in the debates competently, if not spectacularly. He was obviously coached a great deal, and with the low expectations he had to meet, his merely not making a blunder was enough to ease doubts about him and for his campaign to trumpet his performances as great triumphs. |
Competant only works if your opponent ****s up royally. Since Gore did do so, Bush was able to skate by. Saying Gore was half the story ignores the full effect of Gore's actions in the debates. If Gore hadn't sighed loudly or approached Bush while speaking (in debate 3), we'd be taking about whether Gore can win reelection.
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Bush was out of his element in 2000, again, and did just fine, thanks to...lots of coaching and prep work! That's exactly what they'll do for Edwards. And I'll bet Edwards will be better in his debate performance than Bush was in his. |
You keep comparing Bush to Edwards, but you totally fail to compare primary season. Bush did decent enough against McCain (which may have been McCain's fault), while Edwards was GOD AWFUL in the Dem primary. He was ripped apart by just about everyone else on stage. He had no clue about important policy, and I bet he was coached and prepped before that. If he wasn't, then he isn't fit for veep duty anyway.
I'm sure Quayle was prepped and coached too, but once you get out there it is a different story.
The harping on Bush as not being smart totally ignores the fact that he is an ok (ie, competant) debater from back in the Texas days (but still should have been schooled by Gore, who knows better), while Edwards is a crap debater.
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 06-07-2004 at 21:29
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Competant only works if your opponent ****s up royally. |
No, it also works if expectactions are low enough to be easily surpassed. Gore's ****up in debate 1 wasn't enough to kill him alone--had Bush had a ****up as well, the dynamic wouldn't have changed all that much (since the polls had tightened by that point anyway).
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You keep comparing Bush to Edwards, but you totally fail to compare primary season. Bush did decent enough against McCain (which may have been McCain's fault), while Edwards was GOD AWFUL in the Dem primary. He was ripped apart by just about everyone else on stage. He had no clue about important policy, and I bet he was coached and prepped before that. If he wasn't, then he isn't fit for veep duty anyway. |
Okay, now you're making **** up. I watched all the primary debates, and while there was nothing stellar about Edwards, what you're saying here is patently false. Nobody "ripped apart" Edwards in the debates. In fact, because of the fact that he was so exceedingly civil and refused to go negative, he pretty much got the same courtesy from his opponents. The only people who got ripped on in the debates were Dean and Gephardt.
Now, Edwards did make a blunder in regards to the DoMA, which I noted at the time, but what other big mistakes did he make? None that I saw. And not knowing what DoMA said, considering he wasn't in the Senate at that time, isn't that huge of a deal, although it is lamentable.
But other than that, your playing up his debate performances as being far more abysmal than they actually were.
And Bush's primary debate perfomances were at least as bad as the Edwards claims you are making, if not worse. I remember them well, and was constantly struck by how innocuous they were compared to his rivals. But the media didn't seem to care and the GOP had already annointed him, so it didn't matter.
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I'm sure Quayle was prepped and coached too, but once you get out there it is a different story. |
And Quayle was elected VP in 1988. And in 1992, he did decent enough against Gore in the VP debate. He held his own.
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mrmitchell
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WOOHOO
I was hopin' for this jackass.
KERRY/EDWARDS '04 
Last edited by mrmitchell on 06-07-2004 at 21:53
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
Gore's ****up in debate 1 wasn't enough to kill him alone |
In a close election, yes it was. It killed him in the polls. It turned what may have been a clear win inro probably a loss.
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Nobody "ripped apart" Edwards in the debates. In fact, because of the fact that he was so exceedingly civil and refused to go negative, he pretty much got the same courtesy from his opponents. |
Because it was 'civil' he wasn't ripped apart! That's funny! His ideas were pulled apart and destroyed, by yes in civil discourse, but still ripped apart.
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And not knowing what DoMA said, considering he wasn't in the Senate at that time, isn't that huge of a deal, although it is lamentable. |
 That's like saying you don't know what Roe v. Wade is because you weren't in politics then! DoMA is a HUGE issue and not knowing it displays how utterly out of touch and ignorant he was.
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And Quayle was elected VP in 1988. And in 1992, he did decent enough against Gore in the VP debate. He held his own. |
Quayle was elected VP because Bush creamed Dukakis. In '92, Gore really knocked him silly. Maybe because it was 'civil' you didn't notice.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
In a close election, yes it was. It killed him in the polls. It turned what may have been a clear win inro probably a loss. |
Again, you're just ignoring the fact that Bush had as much to prove in those debates as Gore did, and the fact that Bush held himself up to (low) expectations was an enormous help for him in the polls. Why else were editorials ablaze with remarks about how Bush didn't perform as disasterously as everyone expected?
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Because it was 'civil' he wasn't ripped apart! That's funny! His ideas were pulled apart and destroyed, by yes in civil discourse, but still ripped apart. |
I'll wait for some evidence of this from you, because this simply didn't happen in the debates I saw. Edwards was, by and large, in agreement with several of the other candidates on the issues. Where was he "ripped apart" with any specialness that didn't hit any of the candidates? None of the other Dems laid into Edwards as you're claiming, Imran.
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That's like saying you don't know what Roe v. Wade is because you weren't in politics then! DoMA is a HUGE issue and not knowing it displays how utterly out of touch and ignorant he was. |
You're comparing DoMA to Roe v. Wade? Now you're just being silly, and that's coming from me, who certainly has a vested interest in the former. DoMA hasn't had nearly the social impact that Roe v. Wade had, almost immediately.
The DoMA was a political point-scoring stunt that, at the time it was passed and to this day, has had very little real effect on the country. It's never even had a chance to come up for a court challenge as of yet. So I think Edwards can be forgiven for not knowing some of the details of it.
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In '92, Gore really knocked him silly. Maybe because it was 'civil' you didn't notice. |
Another spurious claim. Gore did no such thing, and the debate was hardly "civil." The consensus after the debate was neither had scored a victory, but both and looked like attack dogs.
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06-07-2004 20:43
. I guess this is why they have us take logic classes in school, so much of the outside world never uses it 
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He sure didnt get on the ticket cos he was popular with the voters.
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