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Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 00:37
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Explain your standpoint - after all national insurance just goes into the government coffers like anything else...

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 00:39
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Well I'm not 100% on how it works, but there are benefits you receive when unemployed if you've paid enough of it..

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
Still it's £16.5k which isn't bad for an entry role.


You should consider yourself extremely lucky if you get a job that pays that salary.

You have an average degree. You have no work experience other than two summer jobs. You have no extra-cirricular activities that will make you stand out from the crowd. In short, you have very little to offer an employer.

A recent British study found the average salary for a university graduate in 2003 was £12,659.

You really need to lower your sights to something more realistic.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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Oct 2002
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 13:15 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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Yes, but the average graduate salary for an Economics 2:1 is an awful lot higher. Economics pays second only to dentistry for early salaries in the UK. £16.5k is quite normal for an early role.

For example, the Home Office economics department stated, with regards to the home office graduate employment: "The average starting salary for new graduates is around £23,000 in London (slightly lower outside London)."

More importantly, looking for average graduate starting salaries:

"The average starting salary for a graduate is about £18,343"

link: http://www.universityoptions.co.uk/.../1.asp#salaries

16.5k is under the average.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 13:18
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The studies need to define how they are carried out. Are they talking about avergae graduate earnings, average graduate earnings excluding those unemployed, averate earnings of a graduate who goes into a graduate-type role, etc?

Drogue is offline Drogue
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 13:23 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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I have no idea. All I know is that what I want to do at the moment - go into the government economics service fast track - pays well, get's me training, will pay for me to do an MSc and get's me a technical, economics job in 2 years Though I'll probably need a 1st, and to have got my grades, to do that

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 13:29
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Ah right, good luck..there's always a LOT of competition for those placements..

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
Warlord
To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 13:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Yes, but the average graduate salary for an Economics 2:1 is an awful lot higher. Economics pays second only to dentistry for early salaries in the UK. £16.5k is quite normal for an early role.

Really? Maybe economics degree means something different in Canada than in Britain.

In Canada, an economics degree is just another Bachelor of Arts degree. Nothing special.

But in Canada, we also have undergraduate business degrees which are different from an economics degree.

quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
For example, the Home Office economics department stated, with regards to the home office graduate employment: "The average starting salary for new graduates is around £23,000 in London (slightly lower outside London)."


I was citing a BBC study:
"But the figures compiled by the Cardiff and Lancaster researchers suggest the figure is based on "blue-chip" companies, taking on just one in 20 graduates.

"Average starting wages were actually falling, with last year's average of £12,659 down from £13,422 in 2002, they found.
http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/low/education/3808111.stm

Anyways, my point is that PA doesn't have much in the way of qualifications so he shouldn't expect to get paid much in his first real job.

If he lucks into a good paying job, that of course would be great.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 14:43 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Really? Maybe economics degree means something different in Canada than in Britain.

Yes. In the UK, an Econ degree can be BA or BSc, depending on where you take it. But that doesn't really matter. The subject of your degree does, and economists usually have one of the lowest unemployment rates and highest salaries. Something like ~£35k average 5 years after graduating, IIRC.

quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Anyways, my point is that PA doesn't have much in the way of qualifications so he shouldn't expect to get paid much in his first real job.

A 2:1 in Econ is quite highly sort after by employers, especially with out low unemployment. He can, IMHO, afford to be a bit picky.

Obviously not expecting the earth, but it's not unusual for people to go into investment banking or somesuch and have starting salaries of £30k+, especially with Econ or Maths degrees. Competative, but doable, if you really want to.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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May 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:04 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
Well I'm not 100% on how it works, but there are benefits you receive when unemployed if you've paid enough of it..


Yes... but the money raised doesn't go into a seperate pot to pay for that, it all goes into the central coffers.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:09
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Employers in Canada would be much more selective. Someone with only two jobs after graduation would be seen as odd and undersirable.

Of course unions are stronger in Britain which would explain the higher salaries.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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May 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:12 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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Cost of living is much higher which explains a lot of it.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:34
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First, "Anyways, my point is that PA doesn't have much in the way of qualifications so he shouldn't expect to get paid much in his first real job."

Erm..around 40% go to university, and of those roughly half get a 2:1 or first. So I'm already in the top fifth of acadmeically qualified. It's not unusual at all here for people to leave uni with six months or less work experience.

Mike "Yes... but the money raised doesn't go into a seperate pot to pay for that, it all goes into the central coffers."

You pay your car insurance to an insurance firm but that goes into its coffers too to pay for payouts in addition to wages, overheads, other categories of payout, speculation.

It doesn't stop it being insurance. You can have insurance without hypothecation.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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May 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:37 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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I was explaining PH's point of view.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:41
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Can he not do it himself?

MikeH is offline MikeH
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May 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:47 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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It seems not.

Tingkai is offline Tingkai
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Aug 2001
time: 13:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:47
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Yes, and Canadians are better educated. Something like 40% of Canadians have post-secondary degrees compared to 25% in Britain. With more graduates, salaries will be lower.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 15:48
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Ah well. We'll just debate by proxy instead.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 16:45 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Employers in Canada would be much more selective. Someone with only two jobs after graduation would be seen as odd and undersirable.

Yes, but in Canada you pay for your Uni, so have to have jobs before. In Europe, since the state pays for most of it, and usually parents the rest, you don't have to have jobs right through high school to help pay for uni.

And a higher degree doesn't equal a better salary, since except for academic/scientific professions, it's not normally needed.

You couldn't live in many areas of the UK on a Canadian graduate starting salary, because our cost of living is higher. That's why our salaries are too.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:23
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There appears to be some kind of prerequisite system on NI to claiming JSA...but tell me, can you opt out of NI?

Cruddy is offline Cruddy
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Mar 2003
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:27 Visit Cruddy's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
There appears to be some kind of prerequisite system on NI to claiming JSA...but tell me, can you opt out of NI?


No you can't. JSA comes in 2 flavours, income based and contribution based.

They both pay exactly the same. It's just a way for the Tresury to see if NI going in to the pot exceeds JSA payments going out.

In other words - if you're contributions don't make you eligible for JSA(CB) then you get awarded JSA(IB).

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:28
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No I can't...and nor does it stop me from getting JSA. So it isn't an insurance...plain and simple. It is a taxation.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
No I can't...and nor does it stop me from getting JSA. So it isn't an insurance...plain and simple. It is a taxation.


It's insurance.

You're forced to pay car insurance too - is that a tax?

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:33
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You're not forced to have a car. Therefore it is insurance

MikeH is offline MikeH
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May 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:33 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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I don't pay car insurance.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:37
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You're not forced to work.

Cruddy is offline Cruddy
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Mar 2003
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:38 Visit Cruddy's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
You're not forced to work.


Living on JSA long term is not a viable option.

MikeH is offline MikeH
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Ming on rakastajani
May 1999
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  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:43 Visit MikeH's homepage!
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Not just JSA no, but there are plenty of other benefits. Visit a council estate.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:43
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But it is not the only option other than working.

It's quite clear it's an insurance but people are just after an argument

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 09-07-2004 20:44
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Very true, but the tax on nothing is nothing. And JSA is still taxable too

 
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