10-07-2004 00:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I wonder if I could set up some passwords on my site so the you guys could upload and test this stuff out without having to go through me......

If you can't set up more FTP passwords, we could create a quick PHP script to allow uploading of files, although FTP would be a lot better.

Worst case scenario, I could develop things on my server and pass them to you when I'm done. I know Esoteric could do the same, but I don't know is Aeson has hosting.

	10-07-2004 02:01									#32
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I think a plan is in the works- whose house? (website)

	10-07-2004 19:05									#33
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I haven't seen anyone opposed, so in the interests of alleviating confusion I think we can run with the following:

CURRENTLY:
SECTION ONE
Each city is operating under a Guild Pricing system.

A.
This means each city has a total market of ((Pop X Per Capita Income) + City Commerce APPLIED TO TREASURY))

B.
This money will be allocated to each of the 3 goods (Food/Shields/Commerce) each round by vote of the the landowners of each city.

C.
Each player then buys/sells good in a trade thread which will be open for 72 hours. At the end of the 72 hours the session is over and all transactions recorded.

D.
Each player is considered to have a Manor that can store up to 10 goods of any combination.

E.
On discovery of The Wheel a player may buy/sell goods in any citystate whose radius borders the citystate his tile is in and is connected to that citystate by a road.

F.
On discover of Horseback Riding a player may buy/sell goods in any citystate whose radius borders the citystate his tile is in regardless of road connections.

SECTION TWO
SPECIAL RESOURCES

A.
Gems - Commerce from a tile that has Gems is considered to be "Gems" which are sold as standard commerce but get a 25% bonus to their final sale price.

B.
Coconuts - Food from a tile that has an Oasis is considered to be Coconuts and gets a 25% bonus to its final sale price.

C.
Sugar - Food from a tile that has Sugar is considered to be Sugar and gets a 15% bonus to its final sale price.

Molasses - Commerce from a tile that has Sugar is considered to be Molasses and gets a 10% bonus to its final sale price.

Typically any tile with a resource gets a 25% bonus divided amongst the prodution types that receive a bonus from the resource.

SECTION THREE
Auctions and land tiles.

A.
Each Player is entitled to choose his first tile for free.

B.1
Players are allowed to bid on unclaimed tiles during land auctions held by the government. They must meet the minimum bid price as set by the government for those tiles.
B.2
They must make a downpayment of the tile's minimum bid price if they win the auction for the tile.

C.
A player may go into debt in bidding for one item only. Once in debt the player cannot participate in in auctions or bidding until they are out of debt.

D.
Players are allowed to bid on units that are put up for auction by Cities. Settlers are entitled to ownership of the eight tiles they initially bring into the empire from their founding of a city.

E.
Water tiles are not ownable but their production may be leased out by the citystate they are in the radius of upon discovery of The Alphabet (first tech to allow a naval unit).

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 12-07-2004 at 03:34

	10-07-2004 21:03									#34
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This makes things a lot more clear. Well done Ghengis.

Aidun

	10-07-2004 21:04									#35
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I would oppose corruption use in the calculations. It gives far too much benefit to whoever is in the first few OCN cities... especially that most of our best tiles are there too.

Since cities are centers unto themselves, it doesn't make much sense either...

Also it means whoever gets the first Leader wins the game. They go out, build/capture their own cities far away, rush the Palace. Game over.

	10-07-2004 21:35									#36
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Good point, Aeson. I also just noticed that all the cities are using their commerce for Beakers, and the only Commerce that should apply to us selling product is Treasury.

	10-07-2004 21:38									#37
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quote: D. Each player is considered to have a Manor that can store up to 10 goods of any combination.

How aboot instead things automatically get changed into money, and then it will be easier to keep track of. Also would be unlimited as well. Cause if they don't sell for a turn, demand goes up as supply goes down, and then everyone else should be getting more money.

	10-07-2004 22:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by TORARADICAL How aboot instead things automatically get changed into money, and then it will be easier to keep track of. Also would be unlimited as well. Cause if they don't sell for a turn, demand goes up as supply goes down, and then everyone else should be getting more money.

There is no way I would support that. Then no one ever needs to show up. There's no one playing anymore, there's no game, just some one making calculations.

The key part of this is whether or not you sell or hold, or buy up other products, etc. It was exactly a form of what you are proposing that KILLED the $MiniGame.

(Literally killed it. It went from around 30 players to 12, to 5, to 2 in a matter of weeks.)

You can work out a deal for someone to manage your estate if needed though. Everyone missed a trading session here and there. You lost out on money that turn, but then had your storehouse and could flood the market later and screw someone else's selling plans. You always have a shot at trying to manipulate the market in your favor.

	10-07-2004 22:33									#39
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quote: There is no way I would support that. Then no one ever needs to show up. There's no one playing anymore, there's no game, just some one making calculations. The key part of this is whether or not you sell or hold, or buy up other products, etc. It was exactly a form of what you are proposing that KILLED the $MiniGame. (Literally killed it. It went from around 30 players to 12, to 5, to 2 in a matter of weeks.) You can work out a deal for someone to manage your estate if needed though. Everyone missed a trading session here and there. You lost out on money that turn, but then had your storehouse and could flood the market later and screw someone else's selling plans. You always have a shot at trying to manipulate the market in your favor.

True their money would just add up. But to do anything with it they would have to show up. It's not like this is monopoly where the person with the most money wins. The person with the most units, land, and money will win.

	10-07-2004 22:49									#40
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How exactly does someone win?

	10-07-2004 23:12									#41
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Okay maybe not 'win', but do you get my point? It's not that they get the money that is important to play. The important part is spending it.

	10-07-2004 23:31									#42
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quote: Originally posted by TORARADICAL Okay maybe not 'win', but do you get my point? It's not that they get the money that is important to play. The important part is spending it.

The important part is GETTING it, which is what your proposing we automate. The way those of us who started with crappy tiles got ahead was the way we held or sold our product. Timing and trading are great equalizers.

	11-07-2004 01:16									#43
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Ghengis, as usual I hate to say this but fine work.

Please elaborate on this:

quote: D. Players are allowed to bid on units that are put up for auction by Cities. Settlers are entitled to ownership of the eight tiles they initially bring into the empire from their founding of a city.

What does "settlers are entitled to ownership" mean?

The person or persons whom purchased the settler? Or who???

	11-07-2004 01:28									#44
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Yes.

	11-07-2004 04:56									#45
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Can they decide to keep all of their tiles for themselves? Do they earn the money of the auctioned tiles if they sell them?

	11-07-2004 05:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Can they decide to keep all of their tiles for themselves? Do they earn the money of the auctioned tiles if they sell them?

Well, the citystates are pretty much autonomous. I would expect them to decide amongst their citizens.

	11-07-2004 07:43									#47
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What happens when you have 8 investors in a Settler... and the Settler settles next to water eating up a couple tiles? How are tiles decided upon when a Settler settles... highest bid chooses first?

	11-07-2004 08:34									#48
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GF, could you make a file with all of the updated rules and everything? It would be handy to have.

	11-07-2004 12:37									#49
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quote: GF, could you make a file with all of the updated rules and everything? It would be handy to have.

Yes, it would be!

quote: What happens when you have 8 investors in a Settler... and the Settler settles next to water eating up a couple tiles?

Perhaps the site for building should be decided upon before any can invest in it, so that the exact number will be known.

quote: How are tiles decided upon when a Settler settles... highest bid chooses first?

Would make sense to me.

	11-07-2004 15:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson What happens when you have 8 investors in a Settler... and the Settler settles next to water eating up a couple tiles? How are tiles decided upon when a Settler settles... highest bid chooses first?

Yeah, that's one of those issues I've been wondering about.

Although my thoughts are along the same lines of TORARADICAL's.

	11-07-2004 15:02									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master GF, could you make a file with all of the updated rules and everything? It would be handy to have.

What we're using so far is a few posts above yours. There's a ton of crap for later on the game put I have been leery of posting all of it as its easy to get lost with all the rules.

	11-07-2004 19:04									#52
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Maybe it would be better if we didn't bid on Settlers, but on the tiles the Settler eventually claimed. Essentially that is what we are doing now anyways, but doing so before we actually have the tiles claimed is problematic.

The city that produces the Settler would be in charge of founding the new city, and at that point regular bidding on tiles would be available. This would avoid problems that would arise if the city site is claimed by another Settler (ours or AI's) first, or a change of plans was made in transit (found a city cause there's Barbs/AI about to attack... new resource has just been uncovered, ect.)

That would pose the problem of why a city would then build any Settlers of course. One reason to build Settlers is once you have gotten cities connected by roads so it opens more markets. Since 2 cities will grow faster than 1, there will be more overall demand for goods, and more money to be made, even if you aren't represented in the new city. Then of course there will be the benefits of having more tiles to bid on which helps everyone.

	11-07-2004 19:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Since 2 cities will grow faster than 1, there will be more overall demand for goods,

Okay, you have a new city but you also have 8-20 new tiles producing MORE goods. How does this increase demand?

We could eliminate the eight slots and allow all units to be bid on as a whole (Settlers/Military units/Workers) and then whoever wins the bid for the Settler controls it and can choose to auction of the land tiles, say the unit owner gets the four city shares and the government gets four shares that it can auction off after the city is founded.

	11-07-2004 20:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Okay, you have a new city but you also have 8-20 new tiles producing MORE goods. How does this increase demand?

Demand would increase because you'd have more overall population/commerce. Supply would also increase of course. Sorry if my phrasing was confusing.

	12-07-2004 04:28									#55
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ALCOHOL MARKETS

There are many different types of Alcohol. Each city's alcohol market is a separate market from the other basic markets.

Alcohol Markets operate on a supply and demand system.

The Demand in any city is determined by the following formula:

For Towns there is 1 Acohol demanded for each Pop.
For Cities 2 Alcohol are demanded for each Pop.
For Metropolis' there are 3 Acohol demanded for each Pop.

(So a city with 2 pop would demand 2 Alcohol and city with 7 pop would demand 14 Alcohol.)

Alcohol has a base price of $100.

The price is determined as follows.

Demand/Supply * Base Price

(So if a city that demanded 3 Alcohol had 2 Alcohol sold in it the Alcohol would have sold for (3/2*100) $150 each.)

Types of Alcohol.

Wine - (Commerce from a tile with the Wine resource.) Sells for a 15% bonus of the final sale price.

Beer - (Converted from Food) Sells with no bonus, must be sold upon completion (cannot be stored until discovery of Electricity).

Rum - (Converted from Molasses) Sells best in coastal cities.

Moonshine - (Converted from Food and Sugar)

Whiskey - (Converted from Moonshine)


******* LABOR *******

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city Labor from any city with the estate in its radius. For businesses in cities the Labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius. However, when building IN a city at least one Labor MUST be hired from the city for each building you are building there.

Under Despotism/Anarchy/Monarchy each player has one Vassal. The central government will auction off an additional Vassal for each foreign Worker captured.

To build a building a player must use Labor to convert Shields into the building. 1 Labor can convert 1 Shield each turn.


******* BULDINGS *******

RETAIL BUSINESSES
{city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor)
A Retail Business gives you a 50% bonus to the final sale price of specific product/goods in the city it is built/operated in.

Any "Retail Business" can be expanded into a "Chain Retail Business" for an additional cost of 2 shield/labor which removes the 6 product max (so if the city was size 14 a "retail business" only allows you to sell 6 product at a bonus, but a "chain retail business" would allow you to sell 14)

When built, you must choose the type of "retail business" it is:

1) "Shoppe" -bonus applies to commerce (same as current Shoppe)
2) "Eatery" -bonus applies to food (same as current Tavern)
3) "Tavern" -bonus applies to food AND alcohol, but must sell at least 1 of each to receive bonus
4) "Bar" -bonus applies to alcohol
5) "Steak House" bonus only applies to Beef (food from tiles with the Cattle resource) but bonus is 75%, not 50%
6) "Hardware Store" 50% bonus applies to shields and halfShields.
7) "Specialty Shoppe" bonus applies to a specific type of commerce (ie, Horses, Dye, Spice, etc) and only that commerce receives the bonus, but the bonus is 75%, not 50%.

Any Shoppe, Hardware Store, or Specialty Shoppe in a city with a Marketplace receives an additional 25% bonus, or 75/100% total bonus.

You can cease operations for 1 trading session and convert from one type of "retail business" to another type for a cost of 1 shield/labor.


INN {city only} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires CURRENCY Advance
Requires Eatery, Tavern, Bar, and/or Steakhouse in city chosen.
Doubles bonus on product sold in Eateries, Taverns, Bars and Steakhouses owned by player in city but IS NOT cumulative with the bonus from a Marketplace.
An Inn requires 1 local labor to operate.

Any Inn can be expanded into an Inn Chain in a specific city for an additional cost of 3 shield/labor which removes the 6 product max (so if the city was size 14 an "inn" only allows you to sell 6 product at a bonus, but an "inn chain" would allow you to sell 14)
An Inn Chain requires 1 local labor to operate.



STOREHOUSE {city or estate} (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food). NOTE: you may store up to 10 nonfood items(shields/commerce) in addition to/instead of this 20 storage

BREWERY {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows up to 4 labor to convert up 2 food into 2 Beer per labor (1 to 1 conversion).
1) Breweries may only sell their product in a city which contains the source Brewery in its radius or are connected to the Brewery by railroad.
2) Until the discovery of Electricity, Ale and Beer MUST be sold the turn after it is produced, it cannot be stored.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


RUM DISTILLERY{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows up to 4 labor to be used to convert 2 Molasses into 2 Rum per Labor used.
Rum sells with no bonus EXCEPT when it is sold in coastal cities where it sells at a 50% bonus.
The Molasses must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


STILL{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows owner to convert Sugar and Food into Moonshine (1 Sugar and 1 Food covert to 1 Moonshine). Each Labor used can convert up to 2 Sugar/Food. A Still can only utilize a maximum of 5 Labor.

The Sugar/Food must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.


WHISKEY DISTILLERY{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires BRONZEWORKING advance
Allows up to 4 labor to be used to convert 4 Moonshine into 4 Whiskey per Labor used.
Whiskey sells on the Alcohol Market with a 100% Bonus (or double its final sale price).
The Moonshine must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 19-07-2004 at 04:49

	13-07-2004 00:22									#56
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So we have another layer of city development outside of the actual game- meaning if I open a brewery in X, it is in the city?

And, it (the brewery) is a viable business? It could become a money maker, or a tax deduction, it is a part of X's cultural history- right?

But it only exists in the forum end of the feudal game, eh?

You ever think about making a Mod with the feudal idea as a basis GF?

	13-07-2004 05:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Esoteric So we have another layer of city development outside of the actual game- meaning if I open a brewery in X, it is in the city?

Yes, it could be in the city, or on a tile. Never saw anyone build one in a city before though. You would have to get permission from the city I suppose.

quote: Originally posted by Esoteric And, it (the brewery) is a viable business? It could become a money maker, or a tax deduction, it is a part of X's cultural history- right?

Don't know about a tax deduction, but they can make money.

quote: Originally posted by Esoteric But it only exists in the forum end of the feudal game, eh?

Yes.

quote: Originally posted by Esoteric You ever think about making a Mod with the feudal idea as a basis GF?

No, not really.

	13-07-2004 05:55									#58
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What does it mean by city or estate?

	13-07-2004 06:01									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master What does it mean by city or estate?

City, is the actual cities. Estate refers to the tiles the players own.

	13-07-2004 06:05									#60
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So if the player invests to buy a retail store, the WHOLE city benefits?