08-07-2004 16:43									#1
	RULE PROPOSAL for making money. Put an end to popups!

Alright, here is my proposal to initiate a discussion and hopefully come to an agreement on how to run the income and unit stuff.

1) Each city is a separate market and production from tiles can ONLY be sold in city(s) the tile is in the radius of.

Upon discovery of The Wheel a tile can sell its production in any city (whose radius touches the radius of the home city) connected by a road to its home city .

Upon discovery of Horseback Riding it can sell to any city whose radius touches the tiles home city regardless of a road connection.

2) The price of goods to be sold each turn to be determined as follows:

Each city has the following money to spend on goods:

The city's Pop multiplied by our civilization's per capita income.
PLUS
The total commerce generated that is not lost to corruption.
TIMES
100.

Say a city with Pop 2 and generated 5 gold per turn with a per capita income of 2 for our civ.

2 X 2 + 5 or 9 (multiplied by 100 gives the city $900 to spend)

The citizens of the City allocate how much of the money is to be spent on each good. Say $300 on Shields, $300 on Food, and $300 on Commerce.

If 4 Shields were sold then they would divide the $300 amongst them and be sold for $75 each.

3) Each Settler has the first rights to EIGHT tiles it brings into the Civilization. All other tiles revert to the Government's ownership to be held for future members joining or to be sold in auction.

Discuss.

	08-07-2004 20:36									#2
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What does "allocating how much money is to be spent on each good" do for us, other than split the money? How does supply and demand come in?

I purcahsed a mined hill because eventually it will be shield rich, while the food market would be saturated with billions of floodplains.

	08-07-2004 21:01									#3
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And when you say the settler has the rights to the first 8, what does that mean? Assuming Feudality builds a settler, there are 10 citizens with a "piece" of the settler. Who gets the tiles? Or do the citizens of Feudality just get the rights to bid in an auction closed to the public?

And can people sell all their stuff, even if the city isn't using their tiles? For example, will I be getting 1 food, 2 shields, and 1 gold this "round", despite the fact that Feudality is working a floodplain, and only gets 1 spt?

	08-07-2004 21:04									#4
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And do the citizens of the city vote on how to distribute the money, or does the Mayor choose?

And what does it do for the city? If Serf's Up offers up 80% of it's income for shields, and I (assuming we discovered the wheel) wish to sell my shields there for more money, what does Sefrf's Up get out of it? What does Feudality lose?

	08-07-2004 21:07									#5
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And how do "split" tiles like yours work in terms of trading in to a city? You can only sell your goods once, I hope, but you can sell to either Feudality or Serf's Up now, and upon discovery of the wheel you can trade to any bordering city of either one with a road?

If it is the way that I understand it, split tiles are extremely powerful. If cities are properly constructed, a split tile could possibly trade with 9 other cities

Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 08-07-2004 at 22:15

	08-07-2004 22:23									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Shouldn't tiles that are actually being worked within the main game produce more than tiles not being put to use within the main game?

	08-07-2004 23:36									#7
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Can you own water tiles? Lakes? Coasts? Seas? (Oceans are unownable, since culture borders never expand over them)

	09-07-2004 00:28									#8
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I cant see why you shouldn't be able to own water tiles.. and i dont see why worked tiles should produce more...
I agree to Ghengis 3 points.. btw have the market plan been finalized?

	09-07-2004 00:28									#9
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Ghenghis Farb- looks like we need an update on the rules and a little further development of this feudal system.

Uber Krux's questions are my own as well, perhaps a FAQ thread for us feudal noobs would help out.

And how do we plan to keep track of all the revenues and trades?

	09-07-2004 00:32									#10
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Well a special thread dealing with trades and such should be opened when times come for it. I guess, one or a coupple of trusted persons will run it, calculate income, sales and make sure everything is right..

	09-07-2004 00:41									#11
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There really should be some PHP script to help us with this

Once Farb clarifies all the rules, and we play through a couple of rounds so I can get the hang of it, I may look into making one. I made one for the Feudal Team in the MZO DG, but it was a different concept, and it never finished (we got screwed in the game )

	09-07-2004 00:51									#12
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quote: There really should be some PHP script to help us with this

I was going to bring that up- I wasn't sure who had mentioned making a little db for keeping track but I thought I had read about one here, and I was hoping we could get something going.

	09-07-2004 00:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Esoteric I was going to bring that up- I wasn't sure who had mentioned making a little db for keeping track but I thought I had read about one here, and I was hoping we could get something going.

I have the skill/hosting, but I'm still new to the $Mini-Game.

	09-07-2004 01:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ennet Well a special thread dealing with trades and such should be opened when times come for it. I guess, one or a coupple of trusted persons will run it, calculate income, sales and make sure everything is right..

I would volunteer to be one of the ones to help with this.

	09-07-2004 02:53									#15
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Dang Uber, did Arnelos start posting with your login cause that's a lot of typing.

Okay, will try to answer/interpret questions here.


Allocating of money.
Basically here's how I figured it would work.

Each tile within the city's radius gets one vote. Unowned tiles do not count. I would assume the city's land owners to work like a trade guild.

They vote on how to divide the city's spendable income amongst the three good types. The reason I proposed this as opposed to a set price is that its quite possible only the first few sellers would sell goods while others would be left out completely.

Currently, you can only sell in the city your tile is in the radius of because we have discovered neither The Wheel or Horseback Riding.

A tile in two city's radii does NOT get double production. It does have an advantage of choosing where amongst the multiple cities it resides it wishes to sell it goods. If Feudility has a higher Food budget my tile would probably sell there as opposed to Blue City.

This system is just for these early ages because there is very little supply and demand yet do it being so early in the game.

My plan is that you get the tiles current production regardless of whether the city is "working" it or not. City's should be maximizing their growth and expansion.

We have NEVER been able to own water tiles, although I could see the Mayors leasing off water tiles for use for a set period of turns. I would expect it to require us to be able to build boats and the player who leases it to own a boat to get anything out of it.

And split tiles are VERY valuable later in the game. Right now they simply offer votes and the choice of multiple markets. Later when it comes to building Breweries and Racetracks they make LOTS of money though.

I also propose we adopt the $MiniGame rule that each player has a default storage of 10 items. Your can store up to 10 food/shields/commerce at the end of a trading session for use in the next trading session.[/b]



New tiles from Settlers.
I'm not sure how you would work it out. The original plan was that Settlers would be auctioned off and the owners of it would decide how to distribute its tiles. I think this is an issue that needs to be discussed. I can see allowing the Settler to have first rights to the eight immediately surrounding tiles it gets when founding (although some of those may be water tiles).

I can also see the Settler have rights to all the tiles it generates within its city radius. But what of tiles that are shared with another city? Do they go to the first city founded? The government has to have an influx of tiles to keep for future joining players.

As per Uber's idea of having no one bid and giving Feudility's citizens the tiles but having 10 citizens. How do you get them all to agree on the location? Why not propose the Settler site and allow the citizens to vote on the site. If the site passes you auction off "claims" to the proposed tiles to your city's citizens. Otherwise how would you determine who gets first choice for the new tiles?

I also propose we adopt the $MiniGame rule that each player can go into debt bidding for one item.
Basically, you can into the hole for your bidding but only on one bidding item. Once in the hole ALL of your income and profits go to pay off the government debt. You CANNOT bid on anything in any auction if you are currently in debt.


As for PHP scripting...
Aeson has done a lot of scripting and work along these lines. My website has MySQL and PHP options and I had planned on playing with it last weekend but we had a slight plumping issue that flooded several rooms and they took precedence.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 09-07-2004 at 03:23

	09-07-2004 02:58									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I am very yinterested in seeing this game through and want everything to be clear upfront. If you want to sign on MSN I could elaborate and discuss with you

	09-07-2004 03:13									#17
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I would like in on that as well. I am signed on, and would greatly appreciate an invite.

	09-07-2004 03:25									#18
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Okay, I'm logged in on MSN now.

	09-07-2004 04:23									#19
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Ghenghis, I think that it is better to postpone the moment that you can sell to all the cities in the empire to Engineering or even to the steam engine:
Only with the emergence of trains goods could be transported all around the world, while bridges and better roads helped to transport faster and the wheel helped simply to transport by charts than on the backs of donkeys.

Furthermore, a road must always be a requirement to trade, except in the pre-wheel time, but then you can't trade to other cities.

I think that this should be the limitson trade:
Pre-wheel: only at home city
Wheel: in neighbouring cities of home city that are connected by a road
Engineering: to all cities within a range of 20 tiles from the home city
Steam engine: to all cities of the empire.

Exceptions: until the lighthouse has been built or the caravel is invented (Navigation), you may not trade to cities that cannot be 100% safely reached by galleys.
Until Magnetism you may not trade in cities that cannot be 100% safely reached by caravels.
Coast, sea and ocean tiles do not count when you measure the distance of a city.

Aidun

	09-07-2004 04:31									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thing is, we have to decide whether we want it to be more realistic, or we want less time to get fully involved.

	09-07-2004 04:45									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Aidun, your proposal is pretty much what I proposed only I didn't go into the far off details (no sense in confusing people in more than necessary).

	09-07-2004 14:20									#22
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* MrWhereItsAt flounders

OK, I think I know that city build orders will, from now on, be decided by individual Town Council units. Does this then mean there is no incentive for planning things on a civ-wide scale? Say that two towns want to settle an area, and they know they are in competition, so one town may decide to abandon the construction of something important (like a military unit) to get the settler quicker in order to pre-empt the other town settling the site they want. Even if the other town then recognises it has no chance and changes to the military unit in return, we could potentially be getting the unit later than is useful, and thus start to lose out gamewise.

And something that really worries me is war against other civs. This is going to happen sometime, unless we are going to give them everything they demand yet somehow maintain the military to deter an actual attack (which means we need at least to not be too far behind in tech, which in turn means playing at least a little seriously). If a city is menaced, why should the units of any other city help out? Other town councils lose nothing, but in the meantime we weaken overall and another civ could get closer to those selfsame other cities....

Unless I'm gravely wrong, we are going to lose the specialisation of builds that is what civ is based on, and instead having each individual city be self-supporting, or dead. Could we perhaps circumvent this with a system where other cities buy a stake in a settler or in military units using their resources, thus preventing competition to the level where it is detrimental to our chances of surviving as a civ? Even if we did this it would result in a delay whenever a city needed to hire another city's unit to defend them from an unforseen unit loss - is this OK?

It's all very well playing in a fashion that is deliberately Feudal and inefficient, but we are in Emperor mode with another civ already having scoped our territory. I am not so sure we can be totally complacent in our Civ-playing style. Perhaps if this was Chieftain or Warlord we would be able to dominate easily enough whilst playing in an inefficient manner, but this is Emperor, where you need to make somewhat of a coordinated effort to do well (or even survive).

I know that our goal is not to win, but our goal is certainly tied to our survival, for at least a large part of history. Can we meet this 'basic need' whilst playing with divided interests?

	09-07-2004 16:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt * MrWhereItsAt flounders OK, I think I know that city build orders will, from now on, be decided by individual Town Council units. Does this then mean there is no incentive for planning things on a civ-wide scale? Say that two towns want to settle an area, and they know they are in competition, so one town may decide to abandon the construction of something important (like a military unit) to get the settler quicker in order to pre-empt the other town settling the site they want. Even if the other town then recognises it has no chance and changes to the military unit in return, we could potentially be getting the unit later than is useful, and thus start to lose out gamewise. And something that really worries me is war against other civs. This is going to happen sometime, unless we are going to give them everything they demand yet somehow maintain the military to deter an actual attack (which means we need at least to not be too far behind in tech, which in turn means playing at least a little seriously). If a city is menaced, why should the units of any other city help out? Other town councils lose nothing, but in the meantime we weaken overall and another civ could get closer to those selfsame other cities.... Unless I'm gravely wrong, we are going to lose the specialisation of builds that is what civ is based on, and instead having each individual city be self-supporting, or dead. Could we perhaps circumvent this with a system where other cities buy a stake in a settler or in military units using their resources, thus preventing competition to the level where it is detrimental to our chances of surviving as a civ? Even if we did this it would result in a delay whenever a city needed to hire another city's unit to defend them from an unforseen unit loss - is this OK? It's all very well playing in a fashion that is deliberately Feudal and inefficient, but we are in Emperor mode with another civ already having scoped our territory. I am not so sure we can be totally complacent in our Civ-playing style. Perhaps if this was Chieftain or Warlord we would be able to dominate easily enough whilst playing in an inefficient manner, but this is Emperor, where you need to make somewhat of a coordinated effort to do well (or even survive). I know that our goal is not to win, but our goal is certainly tied to our survival, for at least a large part of history. Can we meet this 'basic need' whilst playing with divided interests?

Every single point you made was BROUGHT UP WHEN WE STARTED. Every point was well understood. It was pointed out that a city may very well be on its own in a war. I suggested we try a lower level than Emperor on the first run also.

Its something we are just going to have to deal with now that we've started. Perhaps a city in desparate straits may willing become a vassal of a stronger city to gain military support?

	09-07-2004 16:50									#24
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Uk. It was? I knew that not reading those old threads would bite me/us in the ass sometime...

Well, I hope we can stay at peace long enough to get something out of this game. Military operations (except against Barbs) will basically be out of the question unless we somehow work together on an amazing scale.

	09-07-2004 18:47									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I guess any captured cities should be owned by their conquerors right? so if me and ghengis conquered a city together, we would split the tiles between us..

And another rule proposal:
The city will buy goods equal to it's income(or what it works)..

Like i posted in the other thread:

quote: Originally posted by Ennet The goods bought by the city should match the tiles being worked.. Example: City income per turn: 6 Food, 4 Shields, 5 Commerce, 15 total then 6/15 of the money should be spent on food, 1/3 on commerce and 4/15 on shields..

This should be the same even in corrupt cities, so even if 4 of thoose 5 commerce are lost in corruption the city still buy them..
Corruption would only matter in the Pop x Cap + Com formula stated above.. etc, the city would have less money to spend on buying things but still buying as much..

	09-07-2004 20:11									#26
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And how do you actually trade? Will there be a "trade thread in which everybody posts what he traded and where and how much money he made?

Aidun

	09-07-2004 21:09									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX There really should be some PHP script to help us with this Once Farb clarifies all the rules, and we play through a couple of rounds so I can get the hang of it, I may look into making one. I made one for the Feudal Team in the MZO DG, but it was a different concept, and it never finished (we got screwed in the game )

I'm a bit of a self-taught newbie with PHP.

I've put together a few scripts already. Signup/login. Map administration (generate blank map, edit tile details). Business administration (create/edit business types). Auction tile/unit. Bid on Auction (no determination of who wins the auction yet though). I've been waiting for the $game details before doing anything further.

GF has the files. If you'd like to work together doing this, that would be great. We can either build off those, or start over completely (if you really don't like the format).

	09-07-2004 23:33									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Aeson I'm a bit of a self-taught newbie with PHP. I've put together a few scripts already. Signup/login. Map administration (generate blank map, edit tile details). Business administration (create/edit business types). Auction tile/unit. Bid on Auction (no determination of who wins the auction yet though). I've been waiting for the $game details before doing anything further. GF has the files. If you'd like to work together doing this, that would be great. We can either build off those, or start over completely (if you really don't like the format).

I was discussing this with Esoteric before we knew some of the scripts already existed, and we were thinking about creating a new forum on his webserver, and building the feudal system right into it.

We were thinking of making a seperate forum for a bunch of reasons, the biggest one being that we could have little subforums for guilds or secret clubs, or each city, whatever.

	09-07-2004 23:40									#29
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I wonder if I could set up some passwords on my site so the you guys could upload and test this stuff out without having to go through me......

	10-07-2004 00:27									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX I was discussing this with Esoteric before we knew some of the scripts already existed, and we were thinking about creating a new forum on his webserver, and building the feudal system right into it.

Sounds cool. If you want any help with the coding I'd be willing to pitch in.