08-07-2004 20:58									#1
	Goodbye my loved friends Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would like to inform everyone that is in the demo game and the SMAC pbem community, that I would like to withdraw from the ACDGIII and the pbem community.

I am doing this because I feel that we have mistreated Enigma. I understand that he has made big mistakes in the past. But nobody has announced to him in public, “No, what you did is wrong.” He has not been given a chance to say he is sorry. He has not been given a chance to prove that he will correct his mistakes. This is the first time it is announced to the public that he did something wrong. And he said that he is sorry. And he said that he will never do it again. And as a CMN in the demo game I have the opportunity to know that he has started to play honestly in the first replayed turn and the third turn where he was the turn player. I will not vouch for him that he has become an honest player. I simply believe that he, as anybody else, deserves to be given one chance to prove himself. However I understand the society is determined to banish him. I understand the bitter feelings he has caused in the past, and I have no right to judge other people’s decisions. But I personally feel what we are doing is equivalent to this: We watched without doing anything when a person is falling into a deep chasm. When he finally realizes it and tries to grab to a little tree and starts to climb back up, we throw rocks at him.

The collective consciousness is such a dangerous thing. Rules can be overlooked when people do not feel like to uphold it. People can abuse their power in deciding when and where a certain person should be punished. When a wall starts to fall, everyone joins in to push it. When it is used in a way the public deemed to be right, means can be employed that are equivalent to what is deemed to be forbidden. The traditionally set up CMN/player framework can be ignored and passwords of games can be bypassed without proper authorization, only because it is used to gather evidences to execute the person that is deemed to be the enemy by the society.

I do not have any more rights to judge other people’s action than anybody else. I also understand why you don’t see what I see, and don’t agree what I believe. Please understand this is not a blackmail trying to force anybody’s hand. This is my own protest against what I believe to be the unfairness of the collective consciousness.

The harm that is done could not be undone. But with the conclusion of this incident I believe the demo game will become much smoother. Please remember that it is a precious thing that we all gathered together from everywhere of the world, for the love of a game. Let us all try our best to help this world to become a more beautiful place.

Best wishes to all of you and to the game.

I love you all.

	08-07-2004 21:42									#2
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Say it aint soo....

This is a grave loss to the whole Comunity, I bairly know a thing about this whole situation regarding Enigma but it seems to have exploded in record time into what must be considered a tragic day for all of us.

I wish you would reconsider HongHu, as you say yourself you love this forum and its people and we love you back. Its nobe of you to try to martyr yourself over this isshue but its simply not that simple.Leaving us wont repair the damage, it just saddens people and that will likly lead to MORE negative feelings not less. Shurely this isn't what you want.

	08-07-2004 22:17									#4
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WHAT THE HELL HAPPENEND THAT EVERYBDOY IS pissed at enigma?...and honghu...PLEASE DONT GO THE DRONES NEED YOU THEY LOOK UP TO YOU

	09-07-2004 00:07									#5
	Tired of ads?

I accept HongHu's reasons for leaving, and I understand, somewhat, why she has. I do disagree with her though. Enigma has not, and will not, be treated any differently from anyone who has done what he has. Anything else would be favouritism. I also believe people have an opportunity to prove himself, and as such, I am happy to play PBEMs with him myself.

The DG is a different matter though. In the DG, I must rule what is in favour of the DG. Evidence was not gathered because he was an enemy of society at all. Evidence was gathered because we have many tell tale signs of cheating, such as incredibly improbably luck, and uncanny knowledge of things just over the horizon.

I am about to make a full statement, and so I just wanted to post here to show my thinking about HongHu. I don't think she is right about her analogy. When we saw someone falling, many of us tried to help. However we did not succeed. I do not agree with throwing rocks, more a quarantine. When he has shown he does not wish to cheat, I have no qualms with him being allowed back into a team. Until then, it would be unfeasable for him to remain in the DG, as a player though. I am usually regarded as somewhat gullible and trusting to a fault. I trust people as a matter of course, and believe it is better to trust and be betrayed, than to not trust a worthy person. However I, at the moment, do not trust that Enigma will no longer cheat in the DG. And I cannot, as the Mod, allow him to continue in good conscience knowing this.

If you ever wish to return, you will be more than welcome, but I understand that you feel you need to go. My best wishes to you.

	09-07-2004 00:31									#6
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HongHu, I replied over here in the other leaving thread .

I hope you will answer my quick question there before signing off. I ask you where it is that E_N is having bad unfair things done to him. I only see arguments, most of which are 'Nothing should be done', with only myself and perhaps one other arguing more vehemently for change. So at least give the process some time HH. As I said there, personally, I'm waiting a day or two for other things to come to light before requesting any administrative action. And I seem to be in a small camp. If, on the other hand, you know of other things being 'done' to E_N right now, let's keep that distinguished in the thread. I have no idea what those might be.

-Smack

	09-07-2004 00:37									#7
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As the eminance grise (at least I think I am) I am saddened that HongHu feels she needs to leave here, her "second home"

I have PM'd her to give some missing backround of which she'd be unaware, and asking her to reconsider her decision to leave.

If not, then as a wise sage said: "Fare thee well" - we were privileged to play with you

Googlie

	09-07-2004 00:44									#8
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smacksim: Please see my other thread. HongHu was aware of this slightly earlier, as it has been discussed in the CMN forum.

	09-07-2004 01:13									#9
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Ah I see you posted on the case.

I'd like to specify my post above as applying to the PBEM forums then, which is still very much up in the air.

HongHu, please reconsider. As you can see, people have done what they could in a compassionate and very thoughtful way. I don't even think you disagree with these decisions, but are hoping to save someone from hurt. If you do want to come back, don't let pride come between you and the ACDG or forums.

-S

	09-07-2004 01:24									#10
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I still don't understand whats going on.

	09-07-2004 02:13									#11
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Do not worry. It's all taken care of, and the game can now continue as normal.

smacksim: It's late, I'm tired and I'm about to go off, but I got the PM and will reply Thanks for the ideas.

	09-07-2004 03:10									#12
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I wanted to say thanks, and sorry. I am too privileged to have known you all, and have played with you.

Drogue has been a great moderator who cares about people, listens to people and thinks for people. He has worked very hard these few days. And he has been making fair judgements. I believe that he will be able to guide this ACDG to continue more smoothly than before.

The teams are also more stable now. I had been worrying for some teams in the beginning but I'm feeling better now. Each team has have your bones and meats, I believe this will be a very interesting demo game after all. Time is the best medicine. Whatever bitter feelings will slowly wear off, as long as we all stick together like we used to.

I have quitted the demo game. But I'm not abandoning you. I will still think about you. I will never stop loving you.


.

	09-07-2004 08:14									#13
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I posted this in HongHu's PBEM farewell thread - I think it's worth repeating here:

**************************************************


No, Smack, you haven't gone astray

You - and Hydro - and I have been around long enough to see the various iterations of the E_N personality type (about 1 per year, I reckon) and the Community each time has had to coalesce around a decision to either ignore, endure, or extinguish, and the latter course was always for the good of the many.

Remember Doom? and HARDMAN? and even trippin' daily when he was high on his medication?

We are a small community of smac/xers - around 300 or 400 maybe - in a larger Apolyton community of 55,000 or so. We do care for each other and generally enjoy each others' company, and we rely on trust, fairplay and consideration and respect for each other's opinions. When these norms are broken, then naturally we "circle the wagons"

Now the past has passed. Let's strive going forward to make this ACDG3 a wonderfully satisfying gaming experience - in terms of gameplay, roleplaying, fiction writing, artwork and general teambuilding for all of us. And if a chastened, repentent, reformed Enigma_Nova re-appears as himself or in an alter-ego, then let's welcome the prodigal son with open arms

And if HongHu and Hydro are with him, then we will be blessed indeed

Googlie

	09-07-2004 12:50									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I'm considering leaving, this is even worse than the last game!

It should get down to normal now. Sure, things will happen, but I think we've got pretty much settled in our teams now.

The thing that's amazed me this time is that each and every team has some great ideas. I've learned something new about playing SMAC (but then, I'm not that good, so that's not hard) from every faction. It's looking very interesting indeed

	09-07-2004 17:37									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

...and I was sorta hoping that the game would collapse so we could get started on a REAL DG.

But I never hoped that people would lose faith and leave. That is not a good thing. Please come back sometime HH.

	09-07-2004 20:20									#16
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"I was sorta hoping that the game would collapse"

BLASPHIMER!!!! Though shall burn in Apolyton Hell for this (Poly is always slow their and all Pod Pops give 8 Demon Boils).

Oh come on WIA stop puting over the fact we whent with a team game for ACDG3, join up and have some fun rather then sitting on the sidelines sulking, lifes too short you know. This games going at a good pace too so it will probly be less then a year. And dont worry you will eventualy get your day. I am fairly shure the next game will be a return to the single team style you prefer (I for one will push for it).

	09-07-2004 20:22									#17
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Please return soon, HH. Enigma hurt this community and needs to pay the price. It will be good for him in the long run. It will teach him that his actions have consequences. We've done the right thing for us and for him.

	09-07-2004 20:33									#18
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People, please. I did not quit the demo game simply for Enigma. I quitted for larger reasons. (There are reasons that I can't put all the reasons here, sorry. I talked a little in my openning post and to some people responding to their PMs but some may not fully understand until later. That's alright.) Please don't lose faith. I would like to formally apologize to all those I have hurt in the process. Please believe me that I didn't mean that. I still love this game. And I will support you in any way I can.

	09-07-2004 20:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] BLASPHIMER!!!! Though shall burn in Apolyton Hell for this (Poly is always slow their and all Pod Pops give 8 Demon Boils).

Glad I'm a PLUS subscriber then.

quote: Oh come on WIA stop puting over the fact we whent with a team game for ACDG3, join up and have some fun rather then sitting on the sidelines sulking, lifes too short you know. This games going at a good pace too so it will probly be less then a year. And dont worry you will eventualy get your day. I am fairly shure the next game will be a return to the single team style you prefer (I for one will push for it).

We'll see, I guess....

* MrWhereItsAt scuffs feet

I'll certainly be calling for public updates every now and again whilst I;m out here.

	10-07-2004 09:12									#20
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Okay, HongHu, good luck with that thing they call real life. Your "love conquers all" attitude is always refreshing.

	10-07-2004 14:38									#21
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I would like apologise to everyone, because I was the cause of Honghu leaving. I was blaming her of many things in the CMNs private forum after the incident, many of them were hurtful and untrue.

For the record, this did not affect my actions with respect to the accusations made against Enigma. Rather after I made the accusations I started acting in an unacceptable manner.

I just hope she can forgive me.

	11-07-2004 00:34									#22
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I agree with Tass. I think this matter, for all concerned, is best left alone until things have settled down, and they can make decisions for themselves as they see fit.

I'd also like to thank HongHu for all the help she's been.