16-07-2004 23:23									#31
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Never would have done it in a SP game. But bear in mind that we got lots more than just peace in both of these deals.

The Babs had 7 bowmen. There are two romans and two or three Germans, along with 2 egyptians, all within striking distance. If the Persians showed up as well, we would be at risk for survival. Then you have to expect the Romans to bring some legionaries, with arrival expected in 10 turns unless the alliance with Persia has presented travel problems for the Romans.

What I didn't want was to have lost a lot of units just before the Romans showed up for a real war. It looked like there was no way to avoid that. The Babs bowmen were being smart in refusing head on collisions with the hoplites. It would take a lot of archers to beat them back and the fight would have been in the same space I want to settle and hook up iron.

I don't like the gold loss any more than you guys do. What I'm assuming (hoping) is that Alexman is fueling the AI with steady purchases of alliances against us. It might be that he is using a tech lead to bribe alliances.

Bear in mind that one of the deals turned the tables and made it harder, we hope, for Alexman's stack to travel to our turf.

I thought currency in the second deal was worth it.

The nice thing about, Greece is that you can defend all the way up to Cavs, and maybe even against the 5-attack cavs in the AU mod. Tech speed is less important than it usually is, particularly since we can't attack the AI.

Basically, I'm resigned to buying old techs at drastically reduced prices and floating along well behind for awhile. We are trying to be patient, looking for a chance to get back into a competitive posture.

	17-07-2004 01:01									#32
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Not a bad plan at all.

	20-07-2004 03:12									#33
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My impression, probably wrong , is that alex plan to keep me at war is not working:

evidence:

1) bribed alliances only bring a desultory archer or two over to Greek land and they bounce off hoplites, usually hold up in walled or hill cities. No pillaging of note has been attempted by the AI.

2) every time I have something significant to offer, either gold or a tech, the AI virtually ignores the "war" and trades with me anyway. prices seem ok

admittedly, the Persian persistence in staying at war with Rome has helped. I usually have two AI to trade with, lowering prices i think.

rome is a good deal larger, but as the pic shows, they do not have a tech lead. (Only code is left in the ancient era and we then get a free tech.)

On the downside, I paid for Monarchy with gpt. So, I cannot switch governments or the anarchy will break the gpt deal. I probably should have just waited for feudalism, but I did not trust that government.

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	20-07-2004 03:55									#34
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr On the downside, I paid for Monarchy with gpt. So, I cannot switch governments or the anarchy will break the gpt deal. I probably should have just waited for feudalism, but I did not trust that government.

You may want to test this in an MP game, but in SP the resulting anarchy doesn't prohibit the ongoing gpt payments or trash your rep. If you have enough in the treasury, you lose the gpt each turn and the other party gets its gpt; if your treasury is empty, you lose nothing (no units are disbanded nor are city improvements forcibly sold off), and the other party actually continues to receive the gpt as if you were still paying it -- it materializes out of thin air -- you emerge from anarchy without a tarnished rep or an unhappy trading partner. In SP with a non-religious civ you can save quite a bit of gold by revolting (if that was already in the plan) during a stream of large outgoing payments -- so long as the treasury is empty!

Probably wise to test first (since I don't play MP) and up to you how you feel about the "exploit-ishness" of this approach (it is true for human and AI in single player -- the AI will continue to pay the gpt even with a 0 treasury, too).

Catt

	20-07-2004 04:27									#35
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Great advice Catt.

Alex beat us to it, however. He immediately bribed the civs I was paying into alliance against me. That ended the gpt. So, I got Monarch and maps essentially for free.

I hope further gpt trades are possible. This is nearly an exploit.

	20-07-2004 17:30									#36
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Ominous: Persia has been bribed to declare war and we drew a full 7 turns of anarchy. The nightmere scenario is that Persia granted a RoP and a stack of legionaries has been dispatched. (Alexman is in anarchy as well.)

If you get no further postings, it's because we've sunk from sight

Last edited by jshelr on 20-07-2004 at 18:46

	20-07-2004 21:35									#37
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Lack of discipline in sticking to the game plan has probably got me in trouble.

We pushed a settler / hoplite pair beyond the road system, violating the rule that we need to be able to get 2 hoplites into any threatened city in one turn.

The rng promptly punished us

I have a bad feeling about the effect on the ai of losing a city and being in anarchy. Slip sliding away.....

	23-07-2004 02:01									#38
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Things calmed down and we basically only have the Bab's bowmen to worry about currently.

Alex seems to have caught on to the gpt dodge and we are not at war with everyone at the moment.

Thought for today: should I skip Feudalism as long as possible to keep building low-cost hoplites??

	23-07-2004 03:40									#39
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So, for one brief shining moment, we are at peace other than the absent romans.

Being too clever, we also made RoP agreements designed to make the AI like us

After the turn, the Babs bowmen all advanced toward an undefended Greek city

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	23-07-2004 16:58									#40
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Feudalism should not effect your hoplites. It's gunpowder you don't want for a good long while.

-Arrian

	23-07-2004 17:00									#41
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Interesting, I thought they would fall off the build list when we got Feudalism.

	23-07-2004 17:05									#42
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I don't think so... 99% sure. Same with Numidians. They stick around until gunpowder.

-Arrian

	23-07-2004 17:06									#43
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ok, thanks!!

	25-07-2004 17:42									#44
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We have about 15 Babs bowmen coming in now and a settler pair just out of the picture.

can't say too often or loudly -- ROP WAS A BONEHEAD MOVE

There is a blocking wall you can see and i don't think the Babs will attack until the 20 turns are up unless we leave them a juicy target. Have to keep them off the road system or we are toast.

Meantime, back at the ranch there is a stack of ten barb horsemen about to attack a one-hoplite-defended city to the South East and my friend Alex has just bribed large Persia into an alliance against us. Two Germans are inside the road system, advancing on the capital.

Unlike a SP game, there is no feeling of control in this game and you just have to try your best.

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	26-07-2004 00:11									#45
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In the first row of barb horsemen, we have 9 units on two tiles. Behind them we have 8 barb horsemen in the other stack. Four reinforcements will arrive after the turn, making 21 horse, not to mention the two on foot to the south.

All this would be little problem except we are fully stretched to keep the marauding Babs with about 25 bowmen from breaking into our core in the north.



we put some more targets in the barbs way during the turn and the germans also got into the mix with the warrior/archer pair you can see. unforturnately, the germans ended the turn blocking our path to the city under barb siege.

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	26-07-2004 17:06									#46
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Feeling like Rocky saying "not so bad" while taking another one on the chin

We had had enough of the Babs wandering around. Since Egypt and Germany were at war, we declared war on Egypt and bribed the Babs into joining. Hope it does not hurt our gpt reputation, but I'm willing to pay cash. Otherwise, we don't have enough units to even put up a resistance if alex suddenly (finally) shows up.

I'm sure everyone is waiting breathlessly for the results of the next turn war with the barbs:

putting hoplites out as targets did not work. the barb horsemen won't attack them

the germans did some work, attacking barbs with three units

amazingly, the barbs did not take a hit point from the regular hoplite -- promoting him to elite. He's in a hill fort as we figured we might as well change production last turn.

	29-07-2004 18:28									#47
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A low level war went on for a couple of hundred years or so. The Persians sent in horses that bounced off our hoplites.

We are building markets -- high risk for the short term, but completely necessary if we are to have even a long-shot chance. the constant military harrassment couple with all the jungle is not starting to bite.

Alex laid off the bribed alliances for a long time, other than persia.

As you can see, our citizens are happy despite no entertainment !! Doubtless they have confidence in our leadership.

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	29-07-2004 18:33									#48
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Or, maybe they don't like what the nightly news has to say about the Romans

This alliance move by Alex hurt. We had a city defended by an archer that a germanic rider happened to be travelling past. Whoops.

My guess is that Persia and the Babs are now powerful enough to send over sufficient troops to cause real problems. As before, we will be patient. But, even if this works again and we can get out of the situation, we have clear evidence that continued application of the bribed alliances strategy for a few thousand years will eventually be a major burden. We have one hoplite army and it's going to have to be speedy to keep the homeland relatively safe.

When the legionaries arrive, and where are they, there is not going to be the battle I hoped for

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	29-07-2004 22:58									#49
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Alex politely informed me that a small contingent of Romans is about to pay a visit.

This is great news, as it indicates I'm about to be put out of my misery. But, I'm going down fighting so he at least gets some fun out of the exercise.

We have no offensive fire power at all. We will rely on blocking maneuvers to make him fight our hoplites as best we can hoping to avoid too much pillaging.

There is little realistic hope. But we were able to generate one lame (almost pathetic) response, relying on the unreliable Persians to help us.

There is also a small chance that the Romans are not really coming and that this was a good headfake, designed to get us to spend gold.

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	29-07-2004 22:59									#50
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Maybe Xerxes will take this battle seriously and bribe other civs to help Or, maybe not.

	30-07-2004 05:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The one used does not support C3C, it has no level for Demi or Sid.

Which doesn't matter. The difficulty level only matters against Barbs and there are no bonuses against barbs in Demi and above.

	30-07-2004 05:46									#52
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Holy cow Mad Bomber, you could have included a quote so I knew what the reference was about. I had to look back quite a ways.

Anyway I don't follow the part on the barbs. The combat calc is for units, barbs are not units, but rather two types of units (warrior and horsemen).

My point was that some units are not present in that tool, as they did not exist before C3C. Not to mention some tools handle armies and they were changed a great deal in C3C. Others such as Elephants changed. None of it is crucial, but just an FYI.

Sorry for any confusion.

	30-07-2004 06:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Holy cow Mad Bomber, you could have included a quote so I knew what the reference was about. I had to look back quite a ways. My point was that some units are not present in that tool, as they did not exist before C3C. Not to mention some tools handle armies and they were changed a great deal in C3C. Others such as Elephants changed. None of it is crucial, but just an FYI. Sorry for any confusion.

Oops. I forgot to include the previous reply. There is an option to manually input the stats of the attacker and defender, so that even if the pull down menu does not include the unit, you are still able to calculate the odds. Also the calculator handles units up to 20 hp. The only real dificiency is that it does not take army bonuses into account, but how often do armies really fight where the odds are not at least generally known?

quote: Anyway I don't follow the part on the barbs. The combat calc is for units, barbs are not units, but rather two types of units (warrior and horsemen).

Barbarian bonuses affect combat odds, which is what I thought you were refering to with the reference to Demi and Sid.

	30-07-2004 06:21									#54
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And the screen makes a cool picture, IMO

	02-08-2004 19:14									#55
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We are hoping (but not expecting) Rome to appear with a stack of knights. If knights come, we can probably make them attack hoplites. The shield-to-shield loss numbers are truly great for Greece in that case.

Rome knows this. So, he is more likely to come with a stack of simple legions and bombardment units. Then we are screwed. If we block a tile, he will simply bombard the exposed hoplites and lose few if any attacking units.

Meantime, Rome is still at war with Persia but had a RoP with Egypt. Here's hoping that a relatively cheap bribed alliance might catch a few of Rome's units offside

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	02-08-2004 19:15									#56
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By the way, we've surged into seventh place on the power rankings

	03-08-2004 01:42									#57
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The Romans are trying to cross to Greece, but they must be having some problems, don't you think

more fun and games with the ai. this frivolous action is only delaying the inevitable.......

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	03-08-2004 02:20									#58
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I am just cracking up at all the alliances in these games, very funny.

	04-08-2004 16:40									#59
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This entry is to illustrate a mental block I've got and I think others also share.

The key tile here is the ruins of the city. By the time the turn gets to Rome, Egypt will have a settler/spear pair on that tile. But they will move off it before Rome's subsequent turn.

Alex is going to move his army to threaten 4 cities simultaneously, by placing it on the westernmost jungle tile. But the only city he can attack and successfully escape from is the city furthest north east -- Marathon.

We should build a fort there this turn. But we do not, because we stupidly treated the ruins like the jungle in our addled head.

Meanwhile, all our allies refused to take a nibble from the army. This is usual AI behavior.

Our army is sword -- hoplite -- hoplite, a useful unit earlier in the game which is not the right mix now.

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Last edited by jshelr on 04-08-2004 at 16:46

	04-08-2004 17:08									#60
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Have your worker @ Argos-6 start a fortress, then move that Hoplite army there and fortify it. It should give Alex something to think about. The only city he can threaten at present is Argos, the rest are a tile to far. Hopefully you have a few bombardment units handy.