09-07-2004 16:50									#1
	Russ Dar Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

AU 601--SPOILER: The Quixotic Adventures of Sancho Panza--A Greek dar1

Sancho the Greek was born in a paradise of jungle. Sir Ralph's idea of heaven, no doubt

He set out with definite goals in mind, but regrettably lost focus almost immediately.

1 Regular hoplites = safety. Conclusion, no barracks.

2 Exploration critical. At least the creator SR gave plenty of forrests to chop so that regular hoplites can be produced for safe exploration.

3 Given the renown of the leader reputed to live far on the other side of the globe, high risk is warranted

4 Be nice to the AI, since we are not allowed to abuse them

Rex is all we have to generate needed size. Thus, lowly pottery is arguably the most important tech in the game. Sancho the Greek decides to research writing at 50 turns and use exploration and gold to get pottery and other needed technology. Keeping citizens happy in the absence of garrisons will also absorb gold.

Due to reasons evidently beyond Sancho's control, exploration goes in circles instead of the preferred straight lines. None the less, the Greeks meet the annoyed Babs before 3000. There follows a nail-biting stretch where Sancho waits for the Babs to get two techs to trade for Alphabet.

Ultimately, Alpha is traded for pottery and cb, a big relief. Sure enough, Ham immediately trades alpha for mysticism. We could be in trouble if Alpha is spread far and wide.

Persia is met in 2670. We are very lucky at that point.

Last edited by jshelr on 10-07-2004 at 20:13

	09-07-2004 16:53									#2
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	09-07-2004 16:59									#3
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Despite the Persian's lack of imagination, a deal for Masonry and WC was quickly worked out and further trades with the Babs yielded Mysticism. Extra gold lubricates the trade effort considerably

We will not bore you with descriptions of the city-building efforts at this point. Suffice it to say that we are advertising worldwide for tile-clearing laborers.

Excuse Sancho for now. He has to direct a race between a hoplite and a Persian warrior to a goody hut.

	10-07-2004 02:27									#4
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The infamous Persians just entered my lightly defended civilization with three warriors, one an elite. Granaries are now up and running, but even best case scenario this attack will slow me down further. We hope they fight like men against the hoplite, and don't pillage. Pic text turn.

	10-07-2004 20:19									#5
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Sly Xerxes thinks he is going to take my naked capital by surprise -- but we were not born yesterday.

Actually, leaving the capital unprotected is nearly an exploit since it will almost certainly delay Xerxes' first attack long enough to let us build units for defense.

We got problems enough: no units; no archers, particularly; worried about pillaging; need to have Xerxes like us in the long haul; how to get him to agree to peace without being able to take any Persian citys and, by the way, IRON.

If he's got iron, we may be in for an embarrassing defeat

Maybe we can bribe him with writing in a few turns.

Lesson: if you Rex without military protection, the AI will come and get you

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	11-07-2004 03:28									#6
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We are now proudly enjoying a despotic golden age as the astute Xerxes attacked across a river with his elite warrior and, failing to get a hitpoint, hid his remaining two warriors in the woods where they can't even pillage. Odds were not too good.

Xerxes beat us to writing by 6 turns. It is tempting, but probably a bad idea to use the GA to prebuild the GL??? That would slow down Rex.

Morale is low among the Greek commanders.

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	11-07-2004 03:30									#7
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Question: do scientific AI civs tend to research literature after getting writing?

	11-07-2004 09:30									#8
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No, they seem intend on getting to map.

	11-07-2004 20:47									#9
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thanks. I think lit may be a decent gamble.

	13-07-2004 01:26									#10
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not much new. killed persians in our lands and chased barb horsemen around some. waiting for the persian hordes to arrive.

does it matter (to the number of turns before he will answer) if you try to contact xerxes to ask for peace. does he think you are a wimp?

	13-07-2004 02:35									#11
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I don't have a definite answer, but I believe it is best to not ask for peace until you have killed a few emissaries or taken at least one town.

Otherwise I would wait for them.

	13-07-2004 19:13									#12
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Trying to contact the civ in question won't hurt things. It was in CivII that civs got annoyed at you for pestering them, not in CivIII. But I expect the Persians will try and extort things from you for peace at this stage, since they're surely more powerful this early on.

I typically only make peace when either: a) I'm facing an incoming stack I don't think I can stop; b) I can do a straight peace-peace treaty (in your case, this probably requires killing off a bunch of their units); or c) I have the advantage (unlikely for you now). You suffer no WW, so the only reason to make peace and have to pay for it is if you really think you might lose something.

You have warrior code, so I'd say build a few archers and see if you can do some serious damage to their incoming troops. If their stack is too big to stop, at least the power jump from having some archers may help you in negotiations. I will often take a "kill as many units as I can and then make peace that same turn" approach if I think it might help me.

-Arrian

	13-07-2004 20:42									#13
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The build-archers-and-kill-incoming-troops idea helped bring Xerxes to the table as Arrian predicted. However, the Babs also declared war, lol, and that encouraged me to pay 80 gold to get the Persians off our backs for the moment, anyway. Xerxes immediately started two wonders, which should keep him busy. We plan to apply Arrian's message to the Babs, along with a little attemped pillage by a hoplite.

We've given up any thought of building the GL. Really can't afford to further slow down the Rex. It's all swamps and jungle over here I suspect that, if we clear it all, we will have a great piece of land. But the work lies ahead and we need workers.

	13-07-2004 20:48									#14
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Here's a look at the prime real estate east of the capital that our property managers are trying to sell to the settler units. More just like it to the west.

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	13-07-2004 21:20									#15
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Ugh. Bad luck with the AI aggression there, jshelr! I HATE fighting the Babs early on. Bab bowmen are so annoying.

The terrain is unfortunate for right now, but if you can grab a bunch and hunker down (protected by those hoplites) for some serious jungle chopping, you're going to have a nice stretch of land. It also looks like the North is a bit better than east or west.

Of course, that's a lot easier to do when you don't have AI civs harrassing you constantly and have your GA blown early like this. Good luck!

-Arrian

	13-07-2004 21:29									#16
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Thanks. Looks like a spot of luck would help considerably.

	13-07-2004 22:22									#17
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80 gold is a lot to give up at this stage in the game. If I was too weak to hold on, I would have spend the money, if I could. I often back off accumulating gold, when I am weak to prevent the AI from coming for it.

	13-07-2004 22:31									#18
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jshelr, that combat calculator seems much simpler to use than what i have at the moment.

care to point out a link to it ? (or mail it to me )

/edit: great story, BtW some bad luck, but hopefully you'll get some good RNG's too.

	13-07-2004 23:17									#19
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here is the one shown http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html

here is one for stack of units
http://www.zachriel.com/BattleCivulation.asp

	14-07-2004 01:04									#20
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The one used does not support C3C, it has no level for Demi or Sid.

	14-07-2004 05:02									#21
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Damn it

If stuff like this keeps happening I'm going to have to stop my incessant whining and admit that things could be worse

We caught a very lucky break when Ham of the Babs caved in and gave away the store for a peace deal. Sum total of Greek troops lost = zero.

Future strategy is subtle: build, build, build. Buy tech as cheaply as possible.

LIterature is widely held at this point. Check out this peace deal:

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	14-07-2004 22:52									#22
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See, I told you things could be worse

Upon meeting the Romans, we had no resources to bribe alliances. We tried, lamely, to make the Romans fall for a trade of literature. But they had the resources to bribe alliances and were not shy.

It's probably not as bad as it looks. (How could it look worse?) The main problem will be waiting until the alliance breaks down before tech trading takes place. Meantime, hoplites look pretty good.......

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	14-07-2004 23:52									#23
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Evidently, I'm a likable despot among those who know me best. My people are more happy than at anytime in the game

Most of the alliance against Greece can't get here in 20 turns and I presume nefarious behavior will occur within the large group of civs. We are going to tend to business at home, keeping cities closely spaced and as well protected as possible in an effort to outlast this situation.

Any and all good ideas are most welcome

How and when can we turn some civs against the perp who caused this in the first place

By the way, anyone who judges alexman insufficiently collegial for good game play should realize that there is a prisoners' dilemma problem here: if you don't do what he did, your opponent might well do it first.

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	15-07-2004 18:07									#24
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Persians are nowhere in sight.

However, the next rotten development was that a retreating archer stumbled into the path of a babs bowman = Bab golden age.

So, there are stacks of regular bab bowmen approaching northern cities.

Here is the question: I want these guys to attack the hoplites and definitely not to pillage. Will building walls have the counterproductive result that the AI will avoid attacking? This is a critical question for the rapidly declining hopes for continued Greek civilization.

Excuse me while I hunt for Churchillian quotes about defending beaches and fields, towns and such.....

	15-07-2004 19:30									#25
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Hmm. I don't know the answer to that, but personally I wouldn't waste the shields on walls (being non-militaristic... at 10 shields, it's worth it, IMO). 20 shields = another hoplite or archer... or catapult if you have math.

-Arrian

	15-07-2004 22:34									#26
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I would suspect the AI will be loathed to attack a hop in walled town. I would prefer an archer, it gets the bombardment and prevents that lucky attack form taking the town.

The archer can go out and kill that wandering warrior.

	16-07-2004 16:41									#27
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Thanks for small gains. The nefarious and greedy, but, unfortunately for us, ironless Persians just switched sides and are at war with Rome.

They may be well placed to shield us from Alex SoD. I'm not worried much about attacking towns, but a stack of legionary pillaging would put the nail in the coffin of the diminishing chances we have to compete well in this game.

Big battle with the Bab's bowmen looms in a couple of turns.



By the way, it's very important for pbem players to take their lumps when losing. It's no fun to get ahead and have the other guy quit.

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	16-07-2004 19:17									#28
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Next turn, the babs sold me peace and currency for an arm and a leg.

Goals now are to hook up iron and wait for Alex SoD to work its way over here. I'm far enough behind on tech to make this feel like a Demi game

After the turn, egyptian units came into view. presumably this means Alex will bribe them to declare war next. However, all we really worry about are the neighboring babs and persians.

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	16-07-2004 20:35									#29
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Wow, that's a lot of money.

Did they have enough of a SoD to really threaten you?

-Arrian

	16-07-2004 21:08									#30
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Those two peace deals will have you in a huge whole. It will fuel a lot of research for the AI or Alexman.

Did you consider spending the money on troops in stead? If you did and any survived, they would help down the road.