11-07-2004 06:42									#31
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Some Republicans today are using homophobia and bigotry as baiting tactic in politics just as Democrats in antebellum and Civil War era United States used racism and bigotry as baiting tactic in politics.

	11-07-2004 06:52									#32
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quote: gay marriage only scared conservatives because of the fear of society collapsing, polyamory, bestiality, riots, plagues of locusts and whatnot. But gays have been getting married for months now and nothing's happened. Nobody cares, and the media had effectively forgotten about it.

Just because the media doesn't care says nothing about the conservatives.

And I really don't think all the conservatives expected plagues of locusts.

Some of the side-effects are longterm, and have already been going on for quite some time. Most conservatives that I know see this as an extension of a process, rather than a radical disassociation from previous events.

	11-07-2004 07:06									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Hmm, to cover all bases you shoulda had, "yes, and it should," and "yes, sadly" options as well. But don't worry, Thorn. I'm pretty sure the GOP is shooting itself directly in the foot. They're only doing this as a rally for their voting bases. Like fat-free Pork. Problem is, gay marriage only scared conservatives because of the fear of society collapsing, polyamory, bestiality, riots, plagues of locusts and whatnot. But gays have been getting married for months now and nothing's happened. Nobody cares, and the media had effectively forgotten about it. This probably comes across as hatemonger politics, or divisive at best.

Actually, the locusts are scheduled for August.

	11-07-2004 07:13									#34
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Will the locusts help Bush, Kerry, Nader, or the Green Candidate?

	11-07-2004 15:18									#35
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Vigilantism, can be defending the moral law as well as that in the books.

	11-07-2004 15:23									#36
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Read up on the trial of Leo M. Frank, tried for the murder of Mary Phagen. Found guilty in a mob-influenced trial nevermind the weight of evidence showing innocence. Aquitted by the governer of Georgia (who subsequently became a target) and finally lynched by the mob defending the "moral law" on 16th Aug 1915. The mob was anti-semetic.

There is no "moral law" and no principle sufficient to enforce as a law. Would you advocate making someone suffer merely because they defy a sociological norm? You have previously made your position clear regarding your support of lynchings of black people in the American deep-South because it was a "norm".

	11-07-2004 15:25									#37
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Well, as I said to you before, there is no absolute morality, so we have to go with what the prevailing majority thought at the time. Of course, this can make some past moral judgments look wrong compared to our eyes, but who knows what our socieites do that will look wrong in generations to come. That's the way it is.

	11-07-2004 15:29									#38
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quote: so we have to go with what the prevailing majority thought at the time.

Moral subjectivism does not conclude to the democracy fallacy (popular = true). You'll note that for every "thats the way it is" argument there is a liberal argument seeking to change it. Furthermore, there are always certain philosophical/ethical principles that are objective in a humanistic context... utilitarianism for example, and as much as I hate to admit it, Kant's too, whimsical in their own context buts consistent in a human one.

	11-07-2004 15:33									#39
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You're only saying that because of the time period we're in right now.

	11-07-2004 15:38									#40
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Socratic acrimony is timeless

If I was being purely affected by my sociological context I would be arguing for tolerance on the basis of political correctness, though I dare say also intolerance if I was from a different background. It's far too black and white. You'll note that society is not a coherent, continuous phenomenon... rather a collection of constituent parts of varying populations and ideas.

You can only argue something directly from your time frame if you are (a) a member of the mob or (b) a direct reactionary to that.

	11-07-2004 20:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Vigilantism, can be defending the moral law as well as that in the books.

Then you're advocating the use of lynch mobs?

quote: Well, as I said to you before, there is no absolute morality, so we have to go with what the prevailing majority thought at the time.

The majority opinion is that assault and murder are illegal, ergo, participating in or inciting a lynching is illegal.

	11-07-2004 20:49									#42
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Gatekeeper

quote: Are you saying that you're going to cheat on your spouse because there's a gay family in the neighborhood?

Yes. Is this a trick question?

	11-07-2004 20:59									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Gatekeeper quote: Are you saying that you're going to cheat on your spouse because there's a gay family in the neighborhood? Yes. Is this a trick question?

Were you already cheating on your female spouse and just find the new neighbours a good scapegoat?

	11-07-2004 21:08									#44
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Were you already cheating on your female spouse and just find the new neighbours a good scapegoat?

We have a winner!

And BK and PA can STFU now.

	11-07-2004 21:09									#45
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"The majority opinion is that assault and murder are illegal, ergo, participating in or inciting a lynching is illegal."

Majority of whom?

In a busy shopping centre, with families etc, the majority do not want to see gays touching. You need to talk within a context.

	11-07-2004 21:22									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue In a busy shopping centre, with families etc, the majority do not want to see gays touching. You need to talk within a context.

Dispite what you wackos think, interacting with gays will not "corrupt" kids.

	11-07-2004 21:24									#47
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To be fair, his argument is that the beliefs of wackos are more important than truth.

	11-07-2004 21:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Majority of whom?

Majority of human beings.

quote: In a busy shopping centre, with families etc, the majority do not want to see gays touching. You need to talk within a context.

In a busy shopping center, the majority do not advocate assault or murder.

It's sad that you believe that homosexuality will have a worse influence on children than assault/murder.

Except in the lynch mob itself, you're not going to find a majority who believe that it should be legal to beat up and/or murder homosexuals.

	11-07-2004 21:32									#49
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quote: Except in the lynch mob itself, you're not going to find a majority who believe that it should be legal to beat up and/or murder homosexuals.

Where did a lynch mob come into it?

	11-07-2004 21:34									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Where did a lynch mob come into it?

When you advocated the assault/murder of homosexuals. Unless you only meant to advocate the assault/murder of homosexuals by individual "vigilantes," and are opposed to the assault/murder of homosexuals by groups of "vigilantes."

	11-07-2004 21:35									#51
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Assault? Murder? at the idiocy of you lot.

	11-07-2004 21:39									#52
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Then what exactly were you advocating when you said that vigilantism against homosexuals shouldn't be prosecuted? Did you mean that vigilantes could politely ask homosexuals to stop kissing in public?

In other words, what should vigilantes be allowed to do against homosexuals without fear of prosecution?

	11-07-2004 21:51									#53
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I don't think you're understand vigilantes, really.

	11-07-2004 21:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I don't think you're understand vigilantes, really.

That doesn't answer my question. What should vigilantes be allowed to do against homosexuals without fear of prosecution? Or were you just blowing hot air before when you were advocating vigilantism?

	11-07-2004 21:57									#55
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dp

	11-07-2004 22:01									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "The majority opinion is that assault and murder are illegal, ergo, participating in or inciting a lynching is illegal." Majority of whom? In a busy shopping centre, with families etc, the majority do not want to see gays touching. You need to talk within a context.

We have talked along this line before -- we already know that you support tyranny of the majority. For instance, in Nazi Germany, if it were the case that the majority of Germans had supported Hitler's Holocaust policy then I suppose the Holocaust was morally justified.

This is not godwin by the way -- it's an extreme, but legitimate example to show the repugnancy of advocating tyranny of the majority. I'm sure others can pick more moderate examples to illustrate the wrongfulness of tyranny of the majority.


And even IF it's the case that the majority of people want gays to repress themselves, gays need not submit to such bigoted demands, since gays are not the ones who have problems with gays. In other words, just because there are homophobes out there and they have their own problems with gays, does not mean I'm going to repress myself -- it's their problem, not mine.

	11-07-2004 23:00									#57
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quote: This is not godwin by the way -- it's an extreme, but legitimate example to show the repugnancy of advocating tyranny of the majority. I'm sure others can pick more moderate examples to illustrate the wrongfulness of tyranny of the majority.

It's still Godwin.

	11-07-2004 23:07									#58
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Parky clearly means that the vigilantes will get together, write a polite letter and hand it to the offending couple.

Just like in frontier times.

I don't believe I shouldn't be allowed to hold hands with someone I'm in love with in public, so I'm not going to stop just because a prejudiced minority are offended by it.

If you ask me, seeing gay couples interract reminds certain people of what they want but are too afraid to go out and have, so they want to repress it.

	11-07-2004 23:58									#59
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All the part-time psychologists are out again

If you want to discuss psychological problems, feel free to make yourselves subjects first.

	11-07-2004 23:59									#60
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Can we write a polite letter to you explaining how you suck?