14-07-2004 05:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I think we can say goodbye to isometric Fallout, but since Bethesda actually make games instead of half finishing them before cancelling, at least it will hit the shelves so we can play and criticise it. The last attempt was at least the third time Fallout 3 was specced up and dropped by Interplay That reminds me, weren't there a couple of other wasteland games in production? Maybe one of them can become champion of the isometric game design school

isometric is dead. deal with it.

	14-07-2004 06:21									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what bugs? True, I played later, after the serveral patches. If there were bugs, the patches seemed to clean them up. I didn't notice any. Of course I still haven't finished the game . I got bored of it.

It seems the Xbox version had game-stopping bugs, although I never encountered them. Sometimes, I got stuck in bushes and couldn't get out. Once, I got stuck in seeweed and drowned. Fortunately, I saved my game often. I never finished the game, mind you. I had a 30+ hour game when somebody stole my Xbox. And I never had the heart nor the time to start a new game.

	14-07-2004 06:46									#33
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I just hope they won't do a post-apocalypse Morrowind. No more crawling around like a snail on a huge map, please. I want vehicles, plenty of vehicles, like in Mad Max. OTOH, I wouldn't mind if Fallout 3 was in the first person perspective: it would be much more immersive, especially with (say) the Unreal 3 engine. Also, I wouldn't mind if the game was open-ended like Morrowind or GTA (imagine the huge clockwork cities of GTA, but with the arcade elements of the game taken out).

	14-07-2004 07:02									#34
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XBox? I couldn't imagine playing a real computer game on that.

And they better have vehicles Or it would be a step back from fallout2. Though in fallout2 you didn't actually see the terrain fly by as you travelled in the highwayman. Except on the world map.

here are some concerns:

As you said, 3D first person could work. I would love to see a beautifully rendered world of fallout. I'd cream my pants to see a fallout world as good as morrowind world

But they have to improve the dialogue over Morrowind. That's the most annoying dialogue system in existance. One main reason I stopped playing. That, and the combat system

The combat system better not be like Morrowind

Don't put silly things in like trainers.

Keep the fallout character system for the most part, with maybe a few tweaks. Though if it is in real time, this may not be possible- see below.

I'm guessing the game will be real time. But they need to implement a pause system like in KOTOR or NWN. Space bar should pause the game. What this will do though is completely overhaul the combat sytem. So the character system would have to be modified accordingly. They need to spend some serious time playbalancing and playtesting this.

Be true to the fallout history and timeline including characters. I don't want to see Tandy turning tricks

Which reminds me. They better retain the adult elements. This is an interesting one. Fallout is one of the few game with adult language. If you play Tactics- they even use the word mother****er. And better include drug use and prostitutes!

And they better have NPC's that can join you. I heard another expansion for Morrowind added this. But the original didn't. Walking around by yourself is no fun. This would improve combat as well.

	14-07-2004 07:31									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Wow. I guess I have become old and jaded. Game announcements used to excite me. Now I have more of a wait-and-see-what-a-piece-of-crap-they-build attitude.

Same here.

There's a little more info in this interview here, though:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/0...ws_6102442.html

	14-07-2004 07:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident XBox? I couldn't imagine playing a real computer game on that.

Indeed.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident And they better have vehicles. Or it would be a step back from fallout2. Though in fallout2 you didn't actually see the terrain fly by as you travelled in the highwayman. Except on the world map.

I'm pretty sure they will have some. They've developed the skills system in BoS to include driving and related skills, and I think the new devs will be working from the most recent rule-set.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident As you said, 3D first person could work. I would love to see a beautifully rendered world of fallout. I'd cream my pants to see a fallout world as good as morrowind world

I'd take a third-person look over first-person look any day... I mean, wouldn't you rather see it from the side when you smash a slaver's head with a single swing of the spike-knucled hand?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident The combat system better not be like Morrowind

Never played Morrowind, so I wouldn't know, but I liked the Fallout turn-based system a lot. I loathe the real-time click-torrent hack'n'slash combat systems. The turn-based system gave the fights a nice squad-strategy flavour, which can still work out very well, as can be seen in Silent Storm for instance.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Don't put silly things in like trainers.

I think it's not so much the developers that put them in, as the player who discover security flaws and create them... Not much the devs can do about it.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident Which reminds me. They better retain the adult elements. This is an interesting one. Fallout is one of the few game with adult language. If you play Tactics- they even use the word mother****er. And better include drug use and prostitutes!

Well, IIRC, the Fallouts are rated M. I imagine to cover a larger portion of the market, they would try for a T rating, which would mean cutting some stuff out. Additionally, what with a certain European country banning blood from games? I rather hope they don't make blood green, like a certain other game, in order to appease the censors.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident And they better have NPC's that can join you. I heard another expansion for Morrowind added this. But the original didn't. Walking around by yourself is no fun. This would improve combat as well.

Bah, NPC's joining the player is a must for all RPGs. They can't possibly even think of leaving that part out.

	14-07-2004 08:30									#37
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I hate when I had to travel with NPCs. They get stuck in walls or rocks or doors, they take forever and are a general nuisance.

	14-07-2004 08:42									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident As you said, 3D first person could work. I would love to see a beautifully rendered world of fallout. I'd cream my pants to see a fallout world as good as morrowind world

Well, I hope it will look better than Morrowind when it comes out in 2005/2006. It should at least look as good as Doom 3 or Half-Life 2. Especially the character models, which weren't Morrowind's strong point.

quote: But they have to improve the dialogue over Morrowind. That's the most annoying dialogue system in existance. One main reason I stopped playing. That, and the combat system

I totally agree.

quote: The combat system better not be like Morrowind

Yes, it sucked. First person perspective works best with guns: it's not great for melee combat.

quote: Don't put silly things in like trainers. Keep the fallout character system for the most part, with maybe a few tweaks.

You have to keep trainers if you keep their silly skill system. Having to train to increase your skills is realist, but it's not fun. Sorry, but learning skills like acrobatics, sneak or speechcraft is not fun at all! I never tried Fallout, but I heard it was based on GURPS, which means its better than the Morrowind system.

	14-07-2004 21:04									#39
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but will they keep GURPS?

when they said they would stick to what they know best, I am thinking they won't.

	14-07-2004 21:33									#40
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quote: Originally posted by vovan Indeed. I'm pretty sure they will have some. They've developed the skills system in BoS to include driving and related skills, and I think the new devs will be working from the most recent rule-set. I'd take a third-person look over first-person look any day... I mean, wouldn't you rather see it from the side when you smash a slaver's head with a single swing of the spike-knucled hand? Never played Morrowind, so I wouldn't know, but I liked the Fallout turn-based system a lot. I loathe the real-time click-torrent hack'n'slash combat systems. The turn-based system gave the fights a nice squad-strategy flavour, which can still work out very well, as can be seen in Silent Storm for instance. I think it's not so much the developers that put them in, as the player who discover security flaws and create them... Not much the devs can do about it. Well, IIRC, the Fallouts are rated M. I imagine to cover a larger portion of the market, they would try for a T rating, which would mean cutting some stuff out. Additionally, what with a certain European country banning blood from games? I rather hope they don't make blood green, like a certain other game, in order to appease the censors. Bah, NPC's joining the player is a must for all RPGs. They can't possibly even think of leaving that part out.

bah! Teen rated games suck. I want M rated games!

	14-07-2004 21:37									#41
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quote: bah! Teen rated games suck. I want M rated games!

Can't you get enough porn off the internet? Why do you need it in games too?

	14-07-2004 21:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Verto quote: bah! Teen rated games suck. I want M rated games! Can't you get enough porn off the internet? Why do you need it in games too?

I can care less about porn. Fallout2 had no porn. I just felt drugs and prostitutes and bad language added a different flavour to the game. Much better than all these G-rated fantasy games like Baldur's Gate2 (which I loved, but for different reasons)

	14-07-2004 23:31									#43
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Great, Fallout 3

Personally I couldn't care less about adding NPC to join the player, since they can be really annoying... Several times in Fallout 2 I had to reload the game, because the NPC's closed the exit in a very small room

What I'd like to see is things develop over time... like when the game begins there's only a few diffenent weapons/shields, but after some time people start inventing these things... but you can also influence this by doing some missions for a certain inventor (to make the invention be released faster) or kill him (to stop it)... or something like that...

	15-07-2004 00:53									#44
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Well, if we are all going wishing for things, I guess what I'd like to see from the new Fallout is the non-linearity of the previous games. There's a million ways to go through F2, and all of them offer their on challenges and rewards. Sure, there's a unifying plot every time you replay the game, and after the first time there's no surprise as to who the bad guy is, but the potential for role-playing is immence. I want more of that from F3.

	15-07-2004 18:39									#45
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adagio - iirc you could force npcs to move out of doors in fallout 2. in fallout 1 this was a real problem though wasn't it? more than a few times i remember killing an npc to make them move.

personally i hope they stick to the fallout 2 formula. i'd really like them to keep isometric graphics(could even be 3d, but if it is please no rotating camera!), the special system(or a modified one), and turn based combat. those are things i really enjoyed but aren't automatically a given for fo3. things like great story/npcs, gritty post-apocalyptic settings, ghouls/super mutants/vaults, etc are probably automatically making a return in fo3(they bought fallout for a reason you know).

i hope they add more depth to combat so being a sniper with small arms skills isn't so godly like it was in the first two games. i'd also like to see skills being more useful in general. it's not that weren't useful but in general stuff like science/doctor/repair/etc could be pretty damn confusing to figure out and usually putting points in weapon skills would be better(you could almost always fight your way through things). i'd also be cool if they added some non-linear elements which would constantly change and maybe a real economy(but these are doubtful).

	15-07-2004 19:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by pg Adagio - iirc you could force npcs to move out of doors in fallout 2. in fallout 1 this was a real problem though wasn't it? more than a few times i remember killing an npc to make them move.

Never found that option

The closest thing I found was that you could tell them to 'stay close' or 'keep distance', but when you were trapped this wasn't much good anymore, since when you're trapped and you tell them to 'keep distance' they wont move before there is a distance between you and the npc...

	15-07-2004 20:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio Never found that option

Indeed, the option is only there in F2.

When you click and hold your mouse over the NPC to get the little pop-up menu, there's all the usual buttons - talk, examine, use skill on, etc, and then there's the one button that looks like a hand and an arrow I think. It moves the NPC.

	15-07-2004 23:45									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio Great, Fallout 3 Personally I couldn't care less about adding NPC to join the player, since they can be really annoying... Several times in Fallout 2 I had to reload the game, because the NPC's closed the exit in a very small room What I'd like to see is things develop over time... like when the game begins there's only a few diffenent weapons/shields, but after some time people start inventing these things... but you can also influence this by doing some missions for a certain inventor (to make the invention be released faster) or kill him (to stop it)... or something like that...

this was a problem in fallout 1, but in fallout2 you could use the push command.

	15-07-2004 23:47									#49
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quote: Originally posted by vovan Indeed, the option is only there in F2. When you click and hold your mouse over the NPC to get the little pop-up menu, there's all the usual buttons - talk, examine, use skill on, etc, and then there's the one button that looks like a hand and an arrow I think. It moves the NPC.

I believe you right click the NPC in question (it doesn't even have to be an NPC in your party) and then there's a little arrow that indicates the Push command. They don't get pissed at you, although they will say something sometimes.

	16-07-2004 01:34									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I can care less about porn. Fallout2 had no porn. I just felt drugs and prostitutes and bad language added a different flavour to the game. Much better than all these G-rated fantasy games like Baldur's Gate2 (which I loved, but for different reasons)

actually there ARE harlots in BG, and in PST you can even buy their services, although the services are not explicitly described and take place off screen.

	16-07-2004 03:00									#51
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Looks like we've found LotM's speciality.

	16-07-2004 03:01									#52
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Steamy^

This is all good news.

	16-07-2004 18:33									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Looks like we've found LotM's speciality.

DnD RPG's?

Nah, I still prefer history oriented strategy games and sims

	16-07-2004 19:17									#54
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As long as they have brothels it's all good right?

	16-07-2004 19:20									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike As long as they have brothels it's all good right?

Brothel of INTELLECTUAL pleasures, Doc, thats the only one you actually get to see in PST. They should have acknowledged Woody Allen more explicitly on that one, I think.

	16-07-2004 22:35									#56
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quote: But they have to improve the dialogue over Morrowind. That's the most annoying dialogue system in existance. One main reason I stopped playing. That, and the combat system

Agree. Morrowind's dialog system is the worst I ever saw. And I'd rather have a turn based combat system and an isometric view but I believe it'll have neither.

	16-07-2004 23:48									#57
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What was wrong with the dialogue?

	17-07-2004 00:08									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Verto What was wrong with the dialogue?

It's the exact same every time. In Fallout (and Arcanum) there would be many factors that really changed it up such as reputation, karma, previous actions, intelligence, and charisma. The conversations were at times long and with many choices, which were really branching. From that you really had to think about what to say to get information/accomplish what you set out to do.

	17-07-2004 04:10									#59
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In Morrowind, the way dialogue works is: increase your dialogue skills by talking to unimportant people, bribing them, etc. This gives you a chance to reach the required level so that when you talk to an important NPC, they will react as you want (I saw this only once in the game). You can also get extra options when you want to talk, but are very limited in these options (this happens once in the whole game as far as I remember, near the very end).
The problem is not so much the system is broken in Morrowind. It works but is very very very awkward (clikcing the option when it is shown is quite hard) and is almost never used, which makes social interactions in that game a joke.
Also, dialogue should depend not only on your own speech skill but also on your clothes, race, sex, intelligence, etc. For instance in Arcanum, people would talk very differently to a barbarian-dressed half elf, an intelligent half orc, a stupid human or a nice looking woman. And your dialogue options would also vary.

	17-07-2004 05:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Verto What was wrong with the dialogue?

lack of personality and character is the main thing. this is mostly because almost all dialogues are exactly the same(as mentioned). the real problem is morrowind was just too big. there is no way for a game with thousands of npcs to have good dialogue unless it's all randomly generated(which has problems of it's own see daggerfall). compared to a game like fallout(less than a few hundred npcs, and probably even less than talk a lot) so it's understandable how much the quality suffers.

massive environment is a very good selling feature for morrowind but in a way it's pointless because the majority of people probably won't even interact with a third of what's there. why build such a huge game if most people aren't going to play it? fallout 2 felt like a huge world but it really wasn't at all. the content was much higher quality so i usually wanted to complete quests(where i ignore 90%+ in morrowind) and it was much better balanced so i couldn't do anything i wanted. i hope fo3 is balanced well because daggerfall and morrowind weren't at all.