14-07-2004 08:46									#1
	Suggestion: On Screen Potential DISORDER flag. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

For Civ 4:

One of my pet irritating peeves with this game that has continued through all the various versions/editions/upgrades is the damn disorder condition that occurs after a turn has been initiated. With all the additional workload that you accumulate, especially late in the game, wouldn't it be a nice feature if a city that has more unhappy faces than happy faces would have an onscreen (PD) 'Potential Disorder' flag instead of having to cull through the advisor screen, or worse, each of sometimes dozens of cities each turn.

	14-07-2004 09:01									#2
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YES!

	14-07-2004 11:08									#3
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No, it would make it too easy for players.

	14-07-2004 18:45									#4
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I hope that you are joking vmxa.

	14-07-2004 19:35									#5
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I would prefer getting rid of civil disorder at all. It's unfun, just like pollution. Better let in unhappy cities be a chance, that population decreases (the bigger, the greater the unhappiness is), or that this city suffers a production and/or commerce penalty, like -5%, -10%, -15% etc.

But if civil disorder were to remain in the game, such flag would be a must.

	14-07-2004 21:29									#6
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An EOT warning would be sufficient for me.

	14-07-2004 21:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha I hope that you are joking vmxa.

Nope, not joking. I figure that if the player does not have an idea of what cities are growing and need to be checked, they should not be rewarded.

I do agree with Sir Ralph that pollution sucks and should be removed. If they won't remove it, then make it localized.

I hate the concept that I make an effort to get pollution generation under control, but still can get global warming.

It would be ok, if I could fix it after the fact.

As to disorder, I have alway disliked it and happy issues. It is in fact the reason I grew tired of Smac (one of my favs at the time).

	14-07-2004 22:50									#8
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it seems like make work to go through all of your cities every turn to me.

I agree, unhappyness has no place in the game, moo2 did an excellent job without it.

	15-07-2004 00:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha it seems like make work to go through all of your cities every turn to me.

Yup you are correct it is work. My point is that if you make it so players do not have to do any work, what then seperates them?

Players will need to be able to do something in order to gain an edge over each other and the AI, else it is just autopilot.

BTW I think that one of the things that crippled Moo3 is that the player has so little impact on the game.

	15-07-2004 00:57									#10
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I'd love to see a popup for that. It's just annoying to have a city go into disorder when I forget to check a city every time one grows. Just a simple: warning, unless you increase luxury spending or reallocate your citizens, [name of city] will riot. a) zoom to city; b) zoom to F1; c) to hell with them! Let them riot, dirty peasants!

-Arrian

	15-07-2004 05:44									#11
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A flag is a must. Don't quite understand why you would be against making the interface a little easier to navigate, vmxa1. Even something simple as an icon/flag or whatever in the city display to warn of impending disorder would be very useful to me. One screen to check before ending the turn.

	15-07-2004 05:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner A flag is a must. Don't quite understand why you would be against making the interface a little easier to navigate, vmxa1. Even something simple as an icon/flag or whatever in the city display to warn of impending disorder would be very useful to me. One screen to check before ending the turn.

Hum, I thought I was clear as to why. Anyway we already have an icon. Just look at the happy faces and the unhappy faces, if unhappy count is larger than happy you need to do something.


It is not very hard to look at the F1 screen is it? Now if you want to lobby to have the governors insure that you never have disorder and take any hit in effeciency the govenor causes, then fine.

	15-07-2004 07:15									#13
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a predictor of next turn unhapiness....just a warning of some kind..that's all

	15-07-2004 07:36									#14
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vmxa... basically your position is, it increases MM, and this is good?

	15-07-2004 08:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker vmxa... basically your position is, it increases MM, and this is good?

No, not that it is good, but if you make it so the players do not have to pay attention, who does it help?

Just play an easy level like Monarch and not sweat it.

	15-07-2004 08:37									#16
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They do have to pay attention. They just don't have to flip through a bunch of city screens every turn.

	15-07-2004 08:59									#17
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You know everyone can have it the way they want it. All the programmers have to do is make it a 'preference' selection and everyone can enjoy playing the game the way they want to. Shouldn't be any argument pro/con that way. That, by the way is the main reason, I enjoy this game over almost all others... Great Versatility in most cases.

Last edited by Gray_Lensman on 15-07-2004 at 09:26

	15-07-2004 10:30									#18
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I would love to have a flag like that. One flag for the whole country would be fine with me - "Watch it, vondrack, there is a problem somewhere!" I'd then happily check all my cities for the one running into troubles.

I respectfully disagree that a player is supposed to "do some work" to distinguish himself from AIs and other players. I've always thought that a player is supposed to "have some fun"... checking the numbers of happy and unhappy faces every turn is NOT fun, even if it is easy. It's a boring routine thing that can and should be handled by the game itself.

You do not need to go and check every single unit every turn for availability. The game checks them out for you and cycles through those that need your attention. Same kind of thing.

	15-07-2004 12:22									#19
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A warning before unrest would be welcome, yes.

	15-07-2004 17:27									#20
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Phantom riots are the most annoying. Losing production for no reason other than the computers miscalculation of happiness annoys me. Not sure if its just an MP thing though.

	15-07-2004 21:43									#21
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vmxa1: I must respectfully disagree. It's just busywork micromanagement that there is neither an on-map icon or a popup. After all, what am I paying that advisor for, anyway? F1 is of marginal utility once the empire is large, especially because cities of about 10+ have the icons run together, and the "unhappy" and "content" faces are much too similar. Give them colored hats or something! [The ugly symbols in Civ2 were much more useful.]

	15-07-2004 21:57									#22
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vmxa: I think there are plenty of other decisions and aspects of the game that can differentiate players, such as city placement, force composition, target selection, improvements, etc. This information is there to be had, and a warning just makes it far easier to access.

Hermann: Using the faces isn't necessary. Either sort by population and check the happy/content number going down the list or sort by happy/content faces and check the population for each one that looks questionable. It's not perfect, but it's better than counting faces by hand.

	15-07-2004 22:23									#23
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Note that all I am saying is let us have a preference that flags a potential city that is easier to spot. I am not proposing the elimination of Disorder all together, because that is what limits you from overdriving your citizens in the normal course of production, which is necessary.

It's the surprise disorder the next turn, when you have gone through dozens of cities individually and inevitably overlook one, that I don't like.

	15-07-2004 23:55									#24
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Wasn't there something like this in Civ1 or 2? The border turned red?

	16-07-2004 00:19									#25
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 No, it would make it too easy for players.

there's a balance between easy and fun.

	16-07-2004 00:37									#26
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vmxa1 is being, uh, peevish.

Prolly lost a Tank to a Spearman or somethin'.

	16-07-2004 00:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Hermann: Using the faces isn't necessary. Either sort by population and check the happy/content number going down the list or sort by happy/content faces and check the population for each one that looks questionable. It's not perfect, but it's better than counting faces by hand.

Just downloading one of the mods that put a smiley (or growlie) under the faces makes it easier to see potential trouble from the F1 screen.

	17-07-2004 15:25									#28
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If you're a hardcore player maybe you want to cycle through city screens every turn. To more casual players this is work and not fun.

	17-07-2004 18:05									#29
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*batman music*
to the polls!!!!

	19-07-2004 17:53									#30
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Come on! Even Civ2's equivalent of the F1 display highlighted cities about to go into disorder. F1 already shows all citizens separated by mood anyway. Why make us count the faces manually?

I don't mind the concept of civil disorder. It should be a pain in the neck, especially if you are trying to fight a war in Republic or Democracy. Even if the F1 screen showed potential disorder, gov'ts with WW are still subject to unpredictable end-of-turn AI actions that could cause disorder. Even the most diligent F1 face counter can fall prey to these.