23-07-2004 06:04									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber My question is how you prevent there being someone around to offer more. Even in a co-op setting, if I am a proven manager, or a geologist with a knack for finding lucrative mineral deposits or whatever . .. . there will be an incentive to pay me more if I can add value. If someone isn't willing to pay me more, I will just iopen up my own shop and take all the profits of my labours for myself-- Since I will be a worker appropriating the efforts of my own labors, I'm sure no one will have a problem with it even if I make 10 million a year

I have no confidence that worker capitalism can be made efficient.

	23-07-2004 06:09									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: #7, more democracy is always better. Even if it results in capitalism?

Capitalism is inherently undemocratic.

	23-07-2004 22:50									#213
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bump

	23-07-2004 22:54									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism is inherently undemocratic.

1) you missed my point - democracy can result in people voting to implement capitalism. Duh.

2) Capitalism is completely constistent with democracy. The State just isn't all-encompassing. Pity

	23-07-2004 22:56									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Skywalker, You have a dangerously inadequate knowledge of economics. Stop acting like a PhD.

You have a dangerously inadequate knowledge of WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT. Stop acting like you do.

quote: Here's the definition of utility out of the Oxford dictonary of Economics. utility A synonym for individual welfare. A utility function gives an individual's welfare as an increasing function of the various goods they consume and a decreasing function of various types of work performed.

quote: utility \U*til"i*ty\, n. [OE. utilite, F. utilit['e], L. utilitas, fr. utilis useful. See Utile.] 1. The quality or state of being useful; usefulness; production of good; profitableness to some valuable end; as, the utility of manure upon land; the utility of the sciences; the utility of medicines. The utility of the enterprises was, however, so great and obvious that all opposition proved useless. --Macaulay. 2. (Polit. Econ.) Adaptation to satisfy the desires or wants; intrinsic value. See Note under Value, 2. Value in use is utility, and nothing else, and in political economy should be called by that name and no other. --F. A. Walker. 3. Happiness; the greatest good, or happiness, of the greatest number, -- the foundation of utilitarianism. --J. S. Mill.

	23-07-2004 22:59									#216
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Serial killers excel at killing. This is not something we want to encourage, just because they are good at it. Corporations are dangerous to indiviudals, the environment, society, etc.

ANYTHING is dangerous to an individual, the environment, or society if it breaks the laws. DUH! By your logic, you are a danger to society, because you could go out and kill people.

quote: They are only good for making a profit,

And providing goods and services.

Hell, you work for Citibank, don't you? Is that only good for "making a profit"?

	23-07-2004 23:06									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You have a dangerously inadequate knowledge of WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT. Stop acting like you do.

We're talking about economics. You aren't. You don't even know what you are talking about.

	23-07-2004 23:08									#218
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No, we weren't. We were talking about the behavior of rational agents. In that context (basically AI), my definition of utility is correct and yours is retarded.

	23-07-2004 23:13									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No, we weren't. We were talking about the behavior of rational agents. In that context (basically AI), my definition of utility is correct and yours is retarded.

What the hell makes you think we are talking about AI? Tell me exactly where you get that from the title or the original post.

	23-07-2004 23:17									#220
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Were you following the argument with che? Reread it, then come back to me.

	23-07-2004 23:21									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Were you following the argument with che? Reread it, then come back to me.

You started on this before you even mentioned AI, and we were talking about economics (specifically self-interest). Imran was the first to mention it. Later you started talking about AI. Knock off the BS.

	23-07-2004 23:23									#222
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Notice when I started talking about "rational agents"?

	23-07-2004 23:31									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Notice when I started talking about "rational agents"?

That's a term created by economists anyway.

	23-07-2004 23:33									#224
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It's a term created by game theorists. Related, but seperate fields. Anyway, in any discussion of those "utility" DOES mean "happiness" - they both refer to the agent's function for determining which result is best and thus which action to carry out.

	23-07-2004 23:38									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It's a term created by game theorists. Related, but seperate fields. Anyway, in any discussion of those "utility" DOES mean "happiness" - they both refer to the agent's function for determining which result is best and thus which action to carry out.

The idea of a rational agent was created by economists even before Adam Smith. The term was coined by economists at the University of Chicago before game theory even started.

Let me just ask you what AI has to do with all this.

	23-07-2004 23:42									#226
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Here's where it started. I was arguing with Aggie about self-interest. I said:

quote: Certainly everyone acts in their self-interest in that they take the course of action that they believe will maximize their happiness. Either that or they're insane (in fact, the definition of a rational agent is one that attempts to maximize its utility function).

Aggie replies with his usual bullshit:

quote: That's a mindlessly idiotic definition. See... this is why people need philosophy.

And I said:

quote: No, that's the only meaningful definition. See any decent AI textbook.

Get it yet?

	23-07-2004 23:50									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: No, that's the only meaningful definition. See any decent AI textbook. Get it yet?

Yes. I understand that you tried to place a definition of a word from a context that no one was using while we were talking about the ECONOMIC defintion of the word.

	23-07-2004 23:55									#228
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No we weren't.

Again:

quote: Certainly everyone acts in their self-interest in that they take the course of action that they believe will maximize their happiness.

	24-07-2004 00:56									#229
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excellent-- it really livens up a thread to have a dozen posts that are the equivalent of " YES we are, No we're not".

	24-07-2004 00:59									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I have no confidence that worker capitalism can be made efficient.

Is this because you reject capitalism entirely or is there something inherently worse about what you term " worker capitalism"??

My point before was simply that wage or income restrictions will not work as long as there are are some free entities and individuals

	24-07-2004 01:44									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Is this because you reject capitalism entirely or is there something inherently worse about what you term " worker capitalism"??

Neither. I just don't see how worker capitalism will work as intended.

quote: Originally posted by Flubber My point before was simply that wage or income restrictions will not work as long as there are are some free entities and individuals

I don't think I disagree with you. I just thought you were under the impression that I advocate worker capitalism.

	24-07-2004 01:46									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No we weren't. Again: quote: Certainly everyone acts in their self-interest in that they take the course of action that they believe will maximize their happiness.

Again. Why are you (and only you) talking about AI?

	24-07-2004 07:47									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Hell, you work for Citibank, don't you? Is that only good for "making a profit"?

Not since March, 2002. Citibank really isn't your best choice about services and all that, considering the sheninagins they've been up to.

	24-07-2004 07:54									#234
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Leave K-walker alone. He's so obviously deluded that he will believe what "economists" tell him about human motivation rather than actually looking at how real people act, that he's irretrievably lost.

	24-07-2004 08:01									#235
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My only real problem is the assumption that people are automatically rational actors. Anyone who has spent muh time around people will realize this is far from the case.

	24-07-2004 08:05									#236
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Even if they were, it wouldn't entail that they were selfish actors.

There's nothing intrinsically irrational about wanting to kill yourself, for example.

	24-07-2004 08:10									#237
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Yes there is. Suicide is only considered rational under extreme situations, such as to save the life of others or to escape torture or another more painful death.

	24-07-2004 08:17									#238
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Then it's not intrinsically irrational.

Dude, where's your metaphysics?

	24-07-2004 08:33									#239
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I'm a materialst. Marxists don't do metaphysics.

	24-07-2004 08:44									#240
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The two aren't mutually exclusive anymore.