21-07-2004 11:12									#1
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Well, if we have people that think that my involvement in too manythings, is because I want to control this game, that feel that I'm guiding this game, along my own path. That I'm inflexible and have the consulmen dangling like puppets, well, I've just had it, Up to here

I've lost my 8 year relationship, I'm still not working and looking at not knowing where my next months rent is even coming from??

I'm not taking it any more. I don;t need this, on top of everything else.....I won;t have it

Everything, that I've done, has been for this team (not for me). all of the long hours, from dawn to dusk, with my but getting sore from sitting too long, to my headaches from my slightly out of focus Computer screen. All of that, for this team, not for myself (except for the pride of knowing that I helped get us to where we are (and hopefully beyond).

So, I bid you all fairwell. I'll send whatever info I have, to the Consuls, but they will have to suss through it all, as Know what is where, when and how and it would take me a week to explin every little detail, over the long term plans that I've got set up (some aren;t even on "paper" as of yet).

E_T

	21-07-2004 11:23									#2
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So you are quitting this team just because of comments and opinions made by one person in chat?

I will be frank here, you and Togas have been going at each other for quite some time now, personally I think he is overreacting in his perception of this team being controlled by only you. I made this clear both in chat and in my posts here in the forum.

If you want to quit fine, I wish you the best and the door is always open for you to come back. But if this is just beacuse of a row with ONE person, you honestly think it is worth giving up?

Think about it. The pillow is usually very wise

-MZ

	21-07-2004 12:03									#3
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:sigh:



Basically, Togas wants to quit because of E_T and E_T wants to quit because of Togas. Sounds lame to me. Especially when both are highly appreciated on this team; just not by each other at this moment. Can't you both just put each other on your "ignore" lists?

	21-07-2004 12:14									#4
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Anyone care to explain what the hell happened?

	21-07-2004 12:14									#5
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Just so you know, this little row was over a chat me, Togas and E_T were having a few hours ago.

I frankly feel dissappointed becasue I feel I was doing a pretty good job at making Togas feeling needed in the team again, while at the same time defending E_T against the accusations of him being a one-man team. But oil and water don't mix and this went to the gutter out of the blue.

Do we always have to quit or threaten to do so when our ego/pride is hurt? When our actions are questioned? When our suggestions are not adopted? We have so many smart and mature individuals around here, and sometimes we act worse than children, either by b*tching at each other senselessly or having these "cry for attention by quitting" fits. Seems Civ brings out the best AND the worst in all of us

We are so close to laying the groundwork for a better team not so far into the future and this happens. Can't we just get along?

In conclusion I just want to post this little tidbit of the chat, after E_T left.

quote: [01:22] [Togas] but I certainly don't feel good about ET saying he's out of here [01:23] [Togas] as much as I ***** about him controlling things too much, I ... well .. I only ***** about that. I never ***** about his MOI stuff.

-MZ

	21-07-2004 12:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Anyone care to explain what the hell happened?

Me, E_T and Togas were disussing a variety of issues: E_T's supposed control over the team, Togas' reasons for quitting, finding new roles for the FAM, talking about CFC, etc. etc.

Some things I guess I should've have handled with Togas in private. But I am someone who prefers tackling problems face to face and thought it was a good idea that both of them were in the same room arguing about these things in person.

Yet now I think we won over Togas and lost E_T in the process. This should not have happened since I honestly believe all of us can work together. I would not want either one of them staying at the expense of the other since both are valuable assets to the team.

-MZ

	21-07-2004 12:21									#7
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Judging by the time and time zones you're all in, it's rather late and bedtime for you all. Please have a good night's sleep and come back tomorrow with a clear mind. THEN talk things over. I'm quite sure your points of view are not all that different and things can be worked out. You wouldn't want to miss the best part in this entire game, now, would you?

	21-07-2004 12:27									#8
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And while we're self destructing, here's this little uncalled for gem as well:

quote: [E_T_late_dinnertime] And WB, his "excuse" for not doing any diplo. If your not going to do it, them don;t be a member of that team

Heh. In anycase:

You sound like you have a lot of **** you need to get straightened out with your life. That should be your first and foremost priority. As much as you will be missed (begrudgingly by some), please get that in order. No one wishes any sort of hardship on you.

Goodluck. Come back to us when you get all your crap settled out.

	21-07-2004 16:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Judging by the time and time zones you're all in, it's rather late and bedtime for you all. Please have a good night's sleep and come back tomorrow with a clear mind. THEN talk things over. I'm quite sure your points of view are not all that different and things can be worked out. You wouldn't want to miss the best part in this entire game, now, would you?

Wise advice. Listen to the cat.

	21-07-2004 18:54									#10
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It sounds like E_T has invested far to much of himself in this game. It IS only a game. I for one think he NEEDS to leave and deal with his real life for a while.

Good luck, E_T.

-Arrian

	21-07-2004 19:43									#11
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It may sound strange, but I had some feeling that this was going to happen.

Everone may know that this could have been prevented if words would have been weighed. That I what I have learned from my affairs in here. I will not mention names, but the people who did, they know what I mean. They made their posts too hastily and the way they formulated what they wanted to express was in an unfriendly and with too heavy wording.

Without E_T I honestly don't know how we are going to fight this war, because we have lost all our experts in the field: Trip and E_T. I think it is a priority for the consuls to make E_T come back, whatever is needed for that. Set your pride aside, we have a war to fight.

Aidun

Last edited by Aidun on 21-07-2004 at 19:54

	21-07-2004 21:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Without E_T I honestly don't know how we are going to fight this war, because we have lost all our experts in the field: Trip and E_T. I think it is a priority for the consuls to make E_T come back, whatever is needed for that. Set your pride aside, we have a war to fight. Aidun

Whoa, whoa, whoa... are we not a team?

E_T was our MoI. What did he have to do with actually fighting the war that no-one else could do? Our military has never been in his control, without a MoW it has been with the consulship. That he posts the fleet routes because it had been organized between him and Arne weeks before does not mean he is in charge of our troops.

The issue here is not about pride, it's that this is a GAME and people are free to join and leave as they see fit. E_T sacrificied a lot of his spare time to be so involveed, that is not sane for anyone. If E_T wan't to return, it should be knowing that this is not a job but something he will enjoy and that it should not take time from other more important activities.

Just as the decision to leave was HIS, and HIS alone, so should be the decision to come back. And if he doesn't, we respect it, but I for one will not be begging anyone to come back. This is a TEAM and no-one, not E_T, not the Consuls, not the Ministers, are irreplaceable.

-MZ

	21-07-2004 21:34									#13
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E_T, I for one, do not wish to see you go, nor do I think anyone on this team does. Togas may have overreacted a bit, but that doesn't mean you should go and leave because of it. Even if Togas had a real dislike for you, which I doubt he does, it shouldn't really matter what he thinks, just what you feel you want to do.

Remember your leaving attempt a week or two ago? That didn't go so well, did it? That just shows how much people want you on this team, and how thankful we are for all the work you put into this game.

	21-07-2004 21:34									#14
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I must agree with Arrian here. If you do still wish to continue, E_T, (though it looks like you won't be reading this), that's your choice; but I think it is time you resigned. I hate to see any resignation happening this way over yet another war of hasty words, but I think it's a good choice.

Aidun: We're going to need a whole new MoI department to replace E_T, yes. That is going to be hectic for a little while. But we have good talent on this team and I think we can do it; and while E_T has helped in both the MoW and FAM areas, I wouldn't say he was ever as vital to them as to the MoI.

	21-07-2004 22:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian It sounds like E_T has invested far to much of himself in this game. It IS only a game. I for one think he NEEDS to leave and deal with his real life for a while.

I fully supports these thoughts

E_T, you are a great player, and I will miss you.

For all of us, real life must be THE PRIORITY. Of course, we all love Civ, but it's better to lose a game than to lose our life !

It's obvious, isn't it ? But often we tend to play Civ as our real life, me included ! .......

	21-07-2004 22:20									#16
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E_T has left the civ group. I assume he did so last night.

	21-07-2004 22:43									#17
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Which means we need a new MoI. Vondrack?

PS As for E_T, I think he really needs a break from civ and he should take care of his real life instead.

	21-07-2004 22:44									#18
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Great time for him to leave the game.

the eve of war
a lost consul/COC
no MOW
now no MOI

	21-07-2004 23:10									#19
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Well, we basically had two consuls before, because Arnelos wasn't active. Now we have three. Hopefully BF will serve as MOW, and we can ger a few deputees. As for the MoI, we probably need to set up a nomination thread for that.

	21-07-2004 23:31									#20
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I see the issue here as not one of E_T vs anybody else. I see two things.

One, E_T has worked his ass off, to the detriment of many other things that he could have been doing. The amount of time he spent here was probably a factor in his relationship breaking up (and why he was probably here a lot after words also with all that free time). With him also being out of work, well, again, he had the time and the initiative. We should be thanking him for his help, not griping about how much of the work that has been done by him.

So, thank you E_T.

Secondly, I see that this game has become one in which we do so much analyzing and planning of the minutia, that it isn’t fun any more. How many people take the time to spread sheet out each and every turn in a game, then prepare plans for the next 50 turns, and so forth. Me, I just build a bunch of archers, rush my nearest neighbor (better watch out those of you in my PBEM, if I ever get back into one), and screw many of those fine details. Why worry about 1-2 food lost, or all those other little things. That isn’t fun. Even when I am DM, sure, I have areas that I watch (it IS my job), but I also don’t worry about each and every little do-hicky. It isn’t worth it. Sure, you get 2-3 people whining about “waste”, and in a compartmentalized regime like we have with demo games, those “waste” items should be minimal, but DON’T LET THE SMALL CRAP GET TO YOU has been my motto. In this game, we lost sight of that idea a long time ago when E_T started doing all those nice graphs, spreadsheets, and future planning. Now, this has become more of a game of planning and spreadsheets and statistics than one in which we just move units around and see who and what we can kill. Demo games are by their nature more one of planning, but we have taken it to such extremes…….. eeak.

So, I say we do two things.

One, first and foremost, we invite E_T back, and we all send him a little love note saying that we do appreciate all the hard work he has put into this game.

Secondly, we insist that E_T does NOT perform any related tasks in the game (ie, no governmental positions). He just sites around, shoots the breeze, makes plenty of spam, and has fun. He is here as a member, nothing else.

We as a team should just prepare a one sheet plan, using E_T’s elaborate sheets as our base guide, saying things like “BigFuzzyMetropolis builds Magellan’s, and is using a university as a prebuild.” This shouldn’t fill up more than one page, and should be topped in a thread by whoever takes over the MoI position.

That’s all for my rant.
--GK

	21-07-2004 23:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing “BigFuzzyMetropolis builds Magellan’s, and is using a university as a prebuild.”

Ah, great. Another city named after me :-)

	21-07-2004 23:50									#22
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Thought you would appreciate.

	22-07-2004 00:32									#23
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Our economy has been running at a level of efficiency that is simply unsustainable, for the reasons Godking mentions. Frankly, I'm AMAZED E_T lasted as long as he did.

At various points in its history, the same has been true of the Gathering Storm in the PTWDG. First under nbarclay and currently under DeepO, our economy has been squeezed for every drop of shields, commerce, etc*. It's amazing to watch, but hellish for me to think about doing myself. It's too much work! Nobody can keep that up for long and still have fun. DeepO, I believe, is looking forward to stepping down soon for GS - to a well-deserved break from being the turnplayer.

I honestly think we need to accept a lower level of efficiency in favor of more fun. Otherwise there won't be anyone left to "play" the game.

As for a MoI... anyone who is up for it, frankly. Otherwise, the consuls should play the turns as they see fit, to the best of their abilities.

-Arrian

* - Not to slight any of our other turn players (Cort, Theseus, me!, etc) of course, but the micromanagement has been most apparent under those two.

	22-07-2004 01:22									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian DeepO, I believe, is looking forward to stepping down soon for GS - to a well-deserved break from being the turnplayer.

It's true... but I've got to say that MMing can be fun as well. However, there is kind of a difference: GS's economy is as complex as apolyton's because of all the cities laying close to each other. However, we only have half the cities, and the shape of our island means a minimum of possible variations. E_T took more variations into account, which also meant he had to spend more time on it.

I can imagine the burnout, especially as last time he wanted to quit, he was asked to remain. That only adds to the feeling of not being able to let go for the better of the team. Apart from that, I don't like it to see him leave during an argument. When I step down from being the turnplayer of GS, I will announce so, look for replacement, and make all preparations so the next in line can do his job properly.

Also, I've got to say, while I previously didn't exactly liked the attitude of E_T, I see little evidence of him doing wrong here. I wasn't in chat, of course, but the posts he made on this forum acknowledged he made a mistake, and asked for forgiveness not once, but multiple times. I can imagine he felt threatened and ill-liked, seeing the amount of grief he got for what is, let's face it, a small mistake of his. Not pointing fingers in any way, but as predicted many months ago, this team will go down due to the tension between its members.

DeepO

	22-07-2004 04:43									#25
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My 2c ..

As usual, these things happen in chat, and for those of us who only browse the forums, we will never see what was actually said.

However, from what I have gleamed, Togas has got agro at the wrong person. If E_T took control of the team, then it was the team’s fault for allowing it.

Blaming E_T for picking up the slack which we all let happen is wrong. If you need to blame someone for this team not being democratic, then blame the team, not E_T.

If you disagree with E_T's enthusiasm to do all the jobs, then you need to offer up alternatives to his plans. Step up and take some responsibility and not point fingers and blame a member who has put in so much work.

Admittedly, E_T does overreact, and fights a little too hard for his plans to be implemented over everyone else. So perhaps having a break will be good for him. But I see nothing wrong with asking him to rejoin, and just lurk a bit like the rest of us.

E_T's contribution to this team has been phenomenal, and I have enjoyed watching the master do his work. I'd rather he did not exit this team in such a fashion.

	22-07-2004 05:28									#26
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I don't think anyone was slamming E_T soley on the CFC diplo issue. In fact, I for one never said anything about his involvement in other matters beyond the MoI, everyone has the right to suggest courses of action for whatever aspect of the team they see fit.

And I agree with H_E entirely. You can't blame someone for nosing in on other stuff when the people in charge simply DO NOT exist. This is soemthing that Togas finally understood at the end of our chat, sadly, after E_T left.

That said, in the grand scheme of things, I know E_T leaving will definitely be a blow to our team, however, it can certainly lead to both himself recovering from the burnout of this overwhelming job, and for the team to cease being dependant on one person for its entire economic planning. It is up to us if we can, and want, to make a gain out of a loss, and this is our chance.

And for the record, I want him back, and I just e-mailed him. Not necessarily as MoI but as a teammate. I will not beg him to return to his MoI position because I seriously do not think there is a single person here who is irreplaceable, that is a decision he must make by himeself. What I do resent, and I told him in the message, is that he should at least hang around to see his plans in action. We are where we are in no small part to him and he deserves to be with us till the end.

-MZ

	22-07-2004 06:21									#27
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@ MZ

	22-07-2004 06:29									#28
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What's tragic is that I worked out my issues with how things were going with MZ in a long, public chat but E_T made his decision to leave before the chat was concluded, wrote up the post, quit the civ group, posted the link in chat and then disconnected.

Perhaps this has more to do with it than mine sniping at him:

quote: I've lost my 8 year relationship, I'm still not working and looking at not knowing where my next months rent is even coming from??

The kind of singleminded dedication he had to this team has really taken a toll on his real life.

We have all benefited greatly from his devotion to this team and this job, even ungrateful curmudgeons like myself. However, none of us asked or expected to do this job at the expense of his RL responsibilities and relationships.

He needs to get his life back together and not devote himself so completely to this game. Hopefully he'll come back and be able to advise and participate a bit, as he does in other demo games.

We need to get on without him and take this opportunity to trust new people to participate in leading and running this team. We really have no other choice.

--Togas

	22-07-2004 06:56									#29
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In case E_T ever sees this, I'm sorry to see him go. I can understand his decision and he has needed a break. Everyone does. Doing this for (literally!) years at a time is not healthy.

We were more alike than different. Sometimes I thought that only he understood the kinds of things I was dealing with a lot of the time (for a while it seemed like it was just him and I, no offense to anyone else ).

So...

Farewell.

	22-07-2004 22:43									#30
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I kind of feel like we let down a friend.

Sorry to see you go E_T.

Your efforts were and shall be appreciated.