26-07-2004 18:33									#61
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the discussion thus far

1. Piracy - Its said to be a growing issue, a problem for PC games, and to favor consoles. Accounts for less development, etc .

Its countered that console games are pirateable as well, so no overwhelming advantage to consoles. The voices of Wardell and others are cited on its unimportance, and studies about filesharing.

Its replied that Wardell speaks for developers of small/medium games - big selling PC games much more heavily pirated. And filesharing is only a portion of all piracy, esp in eastern europe and east asia. But how important are those markets to publishers?

2. Sys requirements - High requirements cutoff part of the market, arguably with little return in some recent games, but its countered that for most games sys requirements arent that high (I think we could do a seperate thread on that, one that got into the prices of specs of current budget machines, and even 2nd hand machines)

3. Modding - Some games that are mod friendly have poor basic gameplay - the CTP's, MOO3, and NWN. OTOH there seem to be plenty of titles where modding has made little difference and NWN has a following (if MOO3 does not ) Most still think this as an advantage of PC games, and not a factor accounting for their weakness - though it may harm SOME titles.

4. Did gaming become TOO popular, and thus too casual? Problematic, as its hard to classify games as casual or not, and its not clear why this would impact PC games more than console games. Best for another thread, anyway @ Spikey.

5. Console capabilities have grown, but this still leaves PC dominant in some categories. And in the case of the Xbox perhaps it creates a platform whose development environment (do i have the terms right?) is close enough to PC, to make joint development easier,and ease fears of a paucity of PC titles.

6. This may not be the golden age of PC games, but there are still some good PC games coming out, and the infrastructure, from developers to publishers to retailers, is still there for a revival.


7. No comments on the alternate retail venues question. Some indication that PC shelfspace doing better in Europe than in US.

	26-07-2004 18:39									#62
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I presume then you mean BG1 and BG2 as examples of the superior (to KOTOR) IE engine games. Many agree, but I can't comment until I get around to them. I have them both, so that's a start.

Planescape is better too. IWD is at least better in combat. The story in IWD, though not that developed, is a subject that hasn't been done to death like with KOTOR.

	26-07-2004 20:38									#63
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BG1 was far inferior to KOTOR, as was IWD. Better in combat? Why, because you could move them around? If that's your gripe, then you weren't playing the combat right (it was fairly easy to move players around). IWD was just a beautified hack n' slash game that got so utterly repetitive I gave up on it very early.

KOTOR, OTOH, has some fun combat (with some interesting choices to be made in terms of attacking).

And you simplify the story to twist it for your own explanation. The basics of the main story have been done before, but not with the BIG twist involved. And ALL the characters were good fun and well nuanced. Judging from your detail of Bastilla, you really didn't pay attention that much to the story of the characters and just wanted to play some hack n' slash instead.

And you are complaining about the good/evil dicotomy? It's STAR WARS for God's sake. And there are few games which really change based on if you act good or evil. Most of the IE games allow you to be evil, but then you end up doing most of the same things anyway; people are just colder to you and you get other party members. Whoop-te-do.

	26-07-2004 20:45									#64
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summary

RPGs (other than particulars subgenres) are a genre where PC games traditionally outclass consoles

KOTOR seems to represent a breakthrough, as compared to previous console RPG's.

KOTOR isnt for everyone, a significant portion of PC RPGers find it inferior to the bioware RPGs

Some folks like KOTOR as much as the Bioware RPG's. Not all of the Bioware RPGs were equally good.

	26-07-2004 20:54									#65
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quote: Originally posted by pg i disagree. i think most games which require 1ghz+ to be playable are pretty high.

as one who is constantly scanning for a replacement for my dinosaur 'puter, I can report that you cant find a new 1 ghz desktop anymore. The most basic budget machines, retailing for less than $400(US) have processors in excess of 2 Ghz. I think you could find a used PC with at least 1 Ghz, for rather less, even at a used PC retail outlet.

	26-07-2004 21:48									#66
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I think the bottom line is that with a PC game you expect sometimes thousands upon thousands of hours of entertainment for the same price you might get (in most cases) no more then 100 hours from a console game. (KOTOR takes no more then 50-60) PC gamers demand more, and more expandability. Console gamers are happy with what they have. PC gamers want games such as civ3 and games with endless multiplayer options. Console gamers, though just entering the online world, can live with a simple non-replayable single player mode and limitted multiplayer options. There was an article written on a now defunct gaming site about how replayability will kill PC games. I think, however, we may be bottoming out in that respect. More and more games come out with expansion packs these days, which I wholeheartedly support.

Other things such as piracy and the standardized platforms of consoles are important, but I think this is the kicker.

	26-07-2004 21:53									#67
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quote: I think the bottom line is that with a PC game you expect sometimes thousands upon thousands of hours of entertainment for the same price you might get (in most cases) no more then 100 hours from a console game. (KOTOR takes no more then 50-60) PC gamers demand more, and more expandability.

Halo multiplayer gives WAY more than 100 hours of gameplay

	26-07-2004 22:32									#68
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Easily. In fact, if Halo 2's multiplayer is as good (or better) than Halo's, I could imagine hundreds of hours more as well. You can now have more than two teams playing at a time.

	27-07-2004 01:17									#69
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I dont think you could really speak out for console because obviously you know nothing about it.

quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras I think the bottom line is that with a PC game you expect sometimes thousands upon thousands of hours of entertainment for the same price you might get (in most cases) no more then 100 hours from a console game. (KOTOR takes no more then 50-60) PC gamers demand more, and more expandability. Console gamers are happy with what they have.

PC games are just as short as consoles. Actually PC Single players elements have been getting worse and worse... while console has been getting better. I can't recall playing a PC games in 21st century that I couldn't beat overnight, skipping classes and finishing it in one straight sitting...

quote: PC gamers want games such as civ3 and games with endless multiplayer options. Console gamers, though just entering the online world, can live with a simple non-replayable single player mode and limitted multiplayer options.

endless hours of playing? TTT, SF3, Halo, SC2, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, SSBM, NFS:U Madden, NBA Live etc etc etc etc etc etc... where should I stop....

Name one PC game that has been popular for so long as SF2... and name one game other than Starcraft thats been in tourney scene as long as MVC2....

Limited? Why is FFXI released in both PS2 and PC? And if you wanna call library of xbox games as being "limited", I don't know what to say to you........

	27-07-2004 02:39									#70
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What's your point?

	27-07-2004 02:44									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Zero I dont think you could really speak out for console because obviously you know nothing about it. PC games are just as short as consoles. Actually PC Single players elements have been getting worse and worse... while console has been getting better. I can't recall playing a PC games in 21st century that I couldn't beat overnight, skipping classes and finishing it in one straight sitting... quote: PC gamers want games such as civ3 and games with endless multiplayer options. Console gamers, though just entering the online world, can live with a simple non-replayable single player mode and limitted multiplayer options. endless hours of playing? TTT, SF3, Halo, SC2, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, SSBM, NFS:U Madden, NBA Live etc etc etc etc etc etc... where should I stop.... Name one PC game that has been popular for so long as SF2... and name one game other than Starcraft thats been in tourney scene as long as MVC2.... Limited? Why is FFXI released in both PS2 and PC? And if you wanna call library of xbox games as being "limited", I don't know what to say to you........

I beleive that if you take the most replayable console games, they will not compare with the hours/player for the most replayable pc game. Especially 3-5 years ago at the peak of replayable games. Half-Like and Civ 2 are still played and modded today. Who would buy a counterterrorism game when they can get counterstrike for free (legally or illegally). The most replayable console games at the time (say, Perferct Dark) did not come close to comparing to the modability of Half-Life and Civ2. At least 50% of my game play time during college was given toward HL or some variant therein. I could have bought more games to take up that time

Currently, console games are catching up leaps and bounds, but so far I don't beleive they've caught up. I play Halo a lot, but it gets old. Timesplitters 2 is very replayable and somewhat modable, but it doesnt seem to draw players in like Halo or HL.

	27-07-2004 02:48									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui BG1 was far inferior to KOTOR, as was IWD. Better in combat? Why, because you could move them around? If that's your gripe, then you weren't playing the combat right (it was fairly easy to move players around). IWD was just a beautified hack n' slash game that got so utterly repetitive I gave up on it very early. KOTOR, OTOH, has some fun combat (with some interesting choices to be made in terms of attacking). And you simplify the story to twist it for your own explanation. The basics of the main story have been done before, but not with the BIG twist involved. And ALL the characters were good fun and well nuanced. Judging from your detail of Bastilla, you really didn't pay attention that much to the story of the characters and just wanted to play some hack n' slash instead. And you are complaining about the good/evil dicotomy? It's STAR WARS for God's sake. And there are few games which really change based on if you act good or evil. Most of the IE games allow you to be evil, but then you end up doing most of the same things anyway; people are just colder to you and you get other party members. Whoop-te-do.

You could barely move around in KOTOR. And the best defense was the best offense so there wasn't too much point in any of the defensive abilities. There was pretty much one really good basic attack and that was Flurry or the ranged weapon equivelent. There were some other times when other attacks were good, but most of the time not, especially unless there were bosses. That big twist might have made it different, but not much. And it wasn't that big since it was kinda expected. The whole love interest knowing about it had been done before too. I did pay attention to the story and characters. They weren't too much more detailed that BG1's. And I'm not saying that things have to really change based on good and evil. I'm saying that it shouldn't be so black and white. Like with the famers in the area above the Friendly Arm in BG1. You don't immediately know who is bad or not. It's one of the more simple examples, but that just goes to show KOTOR doesn't really have anything above that.

	27-07-2004 03:23									#73
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console games have just as much endless replayability as pc games especially now that they have mmorpgs/online play. i've probably spent more time playing mario kart/san fran rush/racing games on consoles than i have playing rpgs on pc. i can't believe you guys are arguing over this. both platforms have so much replayability the only way you are going to get bored is if you burn yourself out by playing too much.

	27-07-2004 03:27									#74
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Racing games get really boring for a lot of people though.

	27-07-2004 04:16									#75
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quote: You could barely move around in KOTOR.

You must have played a different game then. I could easily select a character in combat and run him to another area of the battle.

quote: here was pretty much one really good basic attack and that was Flurry or the ranged weapon equivelent.

Just because you played with one attack doesn't mean we all did. I hardly did Flurry. I mostly did the Power Attack, but usually used Force Wave.

quote: That big twist might have made it different, but not much. And it wasn't that big since it was kinda expected.

Which is easy to say in hindsight. Oh yeah, I knew it all along. Kind of like people who say, oh yeah, I knew Vader was Luke's dad before the end of ESB.

quote: I'm saying that it shouldn't be so black and white.

Once again, it's STAR WARS! If it wasn't black and white it'd wouldn't Star Wars.

	27-07-2004 05:20									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Which is easy to say in hindsight. Oh yeah, I knew it all along. Kind of like people who say, oh yeah, I knew Vader was Luke's dad before the end of ESB.

Except if you read the books.

	27-07-2004 05:38									#77
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I like KOTOR. what can I say.

I think voice acting goes a long way to making an immersive RPG. Much better than written words on a screen. Games like BG2, NWN, and Morrwind use writeen word.

But when the daughter of one of those 2 feuding families cries out: Shen!, my heart hurts for her. Even in my evil game I'm playing right now (yes I'm playing the game a third time- not much replay value, but there is a little), I had trouble choosing the evil option. I wanted her and Shen to be together. She wanted him so bad .

	27-07-2004 06:01									#78
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I agree. The voice acting is a huge part of making the story interesting.

	27-07-2004 07:15									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You could barely move around in KOTOR. You must have played a different game then. I could easily select a character in combat and run him to another area of the battle. quote: here was pretty much one really good basic attack and that was Flurry or the ranged weapon equivelent. Just because you played with one attack doesn't mean we all did. I hardly did Flurry. I mostly did the Power Attack, but usually used Force Wave. quote: That big twist might have made it different, but not much. And it wasn't that big since it was kinda expected. Which is easy to say in hindsight. Oh yeah, I knew it all along. Kind of like people who say, oh yeah, I knew Vader was Luke's dad before the end of ESB. quote: I'm saying that it shouldn't be so black and white. Once again, it's STAR WARS! If it wasn't black and white it'd wouldn't Star Wars.

Yes, you can move him to another area, but you never need to. There is no advantage to movement at all.

The reason you can use different attacks is because you don't need to use the best because the combat is simple and easy. It's the reason people are able to stay level 2 until they become a Jedi.

No, it's easy to say with foresight too. Just like that movie where the kid sees dead people. It's an overrated twist.

Well, then Star Wars might be an inherently bad place for RPGs, just like how the Civil War might be inherently bad for submarine simulations.

	27-07-2004 07:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Yes, you can move him to another area, but you never need to. There is no advantage to movement at all. The reason you can use different attacks is because you don't need to use the best because the combat is simple and easy. It's the reason people are able to stay level 2 until they become a Jedi. No, it's easy to say with foresight too. Just like that movie where the kid sees dead people. It's an overrated twist. Well, then Star Wars might be an inherently bad place for RPGs, just like how the Civil War might be inherently bad for submarine simulations.

Come on, KOTOR was by far not perfect, but it was bioware doing a d20 system star wars RPG! It's story was better then anything the latest movies have come up with. In fact, its the most authentic star wars experience I've had since the original trilogy.

	27-07-2004 07:26									#81
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I originally thought flurry was the be all and end all of attacks.

but I'm finding power attack to be very powerful. Better than flurry imho.

I've never had a more powerful character than I now have,

	27-07-2004 07:36									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Pythagoras Come on, KOTOR was by far not perfect, but it was bioware doing a d20 system star wars RPG! It's story was better then anything the latest movies have come up with. In fact, its the most authentic star wars experience I've had since the original trilogy.

Well, I found the space combat sims a more authentic experience, but the RPG was far better than the recent movies and that's why I like the game. It's a fine RPG, but overrated because the lack of other good ones around at the time.

	27-07-2004 08:46									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I originally thought flurry was the be all and end all of attacks. but I'm finding power attack to be very powerful. Better than flurry imho. I've never had a more powerful character than I now have,

my last time through I used critical strike rather than flurry. Kicked major ass. IIRC, crit strike has a % of stunning the enemy... KOTOR

	27-07-2004 08:57									#84
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 2. Sys requirements - High requirements cutoff part of the market, arguably with little return in some recent games, but its countered that for most games sys requirements arent that high (I think we could do a seperate thread on that, one that got into the prices of specs of current budget machines, and even 2nd hand machines)

I suppose "high" is relative. Without knowing what the median system configuration is, we can't tell wether a game's requirement is high or not.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 3. Modding - Some games that are mod friendly have poor basic gameplay - the CTP's, MOO3, and NWN. OTOH there seem to be plenty of titles where modding has made little difference and NWN has a following (if MOO3 does not ) Most still think this as an advantage of PC games, and not a factor accounting for their weakness - though it may harm SOME titles.

Personally, I think modding is a bonus feature to have. Thus, this does not absolve the developer the responsibility to create a good game in the first place. IOW, it is paramount to have a good game. I reject the notion that having the ability to mod somehow makes a crappy original less of a fault.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 4. Did gaming become TOO popular, and thus too casual? Problematic, as its hard to classify games as casual or not, and its not clear why this would impact PC games more than console games. Best for another thread, anyway @ Spikey.

We may be able to draw a parallel between board games and computer games. No doubt that casual games sell more than deep games due to a larger potential customer base.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 6. This may not be the golden age of PC games, but there are still some good PC games coming out, and the infrastructure, from developers to publishers to retailers, is still there for a revival.

I still think the major problem with PC games is with game design. We have seen seeing a whole slew of sequels, yet original titles are few and far between. It seems that a good game concept that is well implemented will still sell nicely, as consumers have learnt to avoid crap (mostly).

	27-07-2004 09:53									#85
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quote: you can move him to another area, but you never need to. There is no advantage to movement at all.

To get out of range or move to a better location for a ranged attack, movement can be important.

quote: The reason you can use different attacks is because you don't need to use the best because the combat is simple and easy.

What is the best? Flurry ISN'T the best, Power Attack is, at least to me. You disagree. You have many choices to make in fighting.

quote: It's an overrated twist.

Perhaps to you, but I thought it was great, better than twist the end of ESB. A great turn of events! Like BG1 had such an original twist .

quote: then Star Wars might be an inherently bad place for RPGs

Then why was KOTOR such an utterly amazing RPG? Good vs. Evil makes for very good stories.

quote: overrated because the lack of other good ones around at the time.

Not a chance. It's one of the best RPGs of all time and a much better RPG than Morrowind (which I also like). It could go against BG2, IWD2, and Planescape Torment and it'd STILL get the same praise, and blow the others away in sales.

I can't wait for KOTOR2!

	27-07-2004 15:01									#86
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KOTOR is nice (I'm in the unknown world now), with good voices and nice dialogue options. You really get the chance to be a fukcing arsehole, but then again you could do that just the same in the BG saga.
The landscapes and decors are magnificent though the in-door locations are a bit simple and repetitive.

The thing in KOTOR that annoys me a bit though is that the game is so easy. Combat is pretty straightforward. Just take your soldier, equip him with 2 blades, upgrade the weapons, invest in power attack and your enemy doesn't stand a chance. Flurry and other melee feats are useless anyway, except for dualwield of course. Same goes for ranged attacks. Power blast is good, the rest isn't worth it. There's also no real need to use captured weapons or buy weapons. I used the prototype vibroblade a very long time (because it was upgradable) until I found some decent crystals so I could dualwield 2 lightsabres instead of 1 lightsabre and the prototype blade.

The game doesn't require anything from you... even if I don't use power attack I just have to click my enemies and watch until the fight is over, there really isn't any challenge, no tactical possibilities. My character has such high saving throws, defense and immunities anyway that he isn't affectd by enemy force powers anyway. When I was captured on the ship and encountered Malak (and Bastila was captured) I could fight him, but that was a joke.. Malak could barely hit me; after 3 hits Malak fled already!

Stealth is completely ineffective in this game, even if you wanted to, there's no need at all to do it due to the slow movement and basically why on earth should you go in stealth?? In the BG saga that was something completely different heh .

Another annoying fact is that you can't quickly change weapons like in BG. you have to wrestle through the inventory, click a dozen times before you can switch from melee to ranged and vice versa, for all 3 characters!!! The whole inventory feels 'console' and very difficult to use... If I want to read a datapad I have to search through my entire inventory ffs!

	27-07-2004 16:00									#87
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I agree on the stealth and the interface. As for those finding it easy play through on hard. It's not killer hard, but it is harder than default.

	27-07-2004 16:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Well, I found the space combat sims a more authentic experience, but the RPG was far better than the recent movies and that's why I like the game. It's a fine RPG, but overrated because the lack of other good ones around at the time.

Something I like about KOTOR is that its a little different every time you play through again. I liked watching other people play it. I said a lot "I didn't get this..."

In pure RPG terms its not as good as the Bioware PC titles, but its their first attempt at a console RPG. I'm happy (while were on the subject) that if PC games completly die, I can get Bioware RPGs on the Xbox.

	27-07-2004 22:12									#89
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I loved KOTOR because it was an immersive storyline with voice acting and few moments to jar you out of the fantasy. Every time the pathfinding sc.rewed up in an Infinity title I would be cursing the engine and not enjoying the game. The simpler combat and smaller party also helped the flow of the game. I love ToEE too, with its tactical turnbased combat, but KotOR beats it hands down for immersion.

I also disagree about the rise in piracy. I don't know a time when it wasn't possible to obtain a copy of a game if you were happy to get a stripped down version that might not work. I just know that my friends and I placed more value in owning the genuine article as our disposable income grew. What has changed is the sheer cost of making a premium title, so the need to claw back every last dollar from the public is more pressing than when a popular title could emerge from a bunch of college guys in a basement studio.

	28-07-2004 04:35									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I agree on the stealth and the interface. As for those finding it easy play through on hard. It's not killer hard, but it is harder than default.

I do play on difficult . At first it was harder, but now I started using power attack, it's easy .

Once you achieve mastery, it really gets easy.

But it's still a fun game.