23-07-2004 19:00									#1
	the state of PC gaming Support Apolyton

I dont think we've talked about this one for awhile.

So, PC game sales are stagnant (while console games sales grow, IIUC). Several medium to large publishers have dropped out of the business. TBS seems to be joining Wargames and flight sims and adventure games as niche markets, with few mainstream titles able to make into bricks and mortar retailers.

OTOH, the drop in PC game shelf space a few years ago seems to have bottomed out, rather than gone into a death spiral. And there seems to be more sales via the net with parcel delivery (eg Amazon, etc) and even some sales via net delivery to the growing broadband market. Sales which (IIUC) arent captured in the sales stats usually reported.

The PC continues to hold its own in RPGs and FPS, though some games are now ported FROM consoles.

Interesting developments in the strat/simulation side, with Paradox creating virtually a new niche genre, and Maxis creating a powerful franchise (though unfortunately NOT a subgenre - one thinks some competition might result in this idea being implemented better) Citybuilders live.


Of course all this is with consoles in a late stage of current gen - when new gen consoles come out, thats traditionally a bad time for PC games.

Also - more PC games under development in Eastern Europe - sales states i mentioned are US - how is PC games market internationally?

	23-07-2004 19:31									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Life after the creative idea crash is what I think. This is why all the movies coming out suck, and why most of the games do as well.

	23-07-2004 19:37									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Lord of the Mark: may I ask what do you mean by Niche Genre and Brick and Mortar retailers ?


I really don't know how the games market is doing in Finland or in Europe but atleast locally the PC-games have the same shelve space they had, say, 5 years ago, maybe even little more.

	23-07-2004 19:49									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

niche genre - a genre that doesnt appeal to the kind of person looking generically for a "good game" but has a (relatively) small but devoted following who specifically want games in this genre, sometimes to the exclusion of all other games, and who buy enough games (sometimes at inflated prices) to keep the genre alive. The premier example would be historically accurate wargames - they almost never make it onto store shelves, and are never published by large publishers, but small developers and publishers make a steady stream of them, to a batch of devoted hobbyists, who mainly purchase them via the internet.


Brick and mortar retailers - no, not stores that sell brick and mortar. Retailers that operate actual real world stores, in a mall or on a street, where customers may "walk" in, and physically examine merchandise, and then walk out with it. As opposed to "ecommerce" - internet stores, where a customer can examine info on a website, and place an order electronically, and (typically) receives the merchandise via mail/parcel delivery. (note, there were alternatives to "bricks and mortar" retailers before Ecommerce - mail order - but this wasnt as important - though it did play a role in the board wargame market.

	23-07-2004 20:05									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I happen to agree in part.

Computer games do seem to run in stages. But I still think we are at a stagnant point in gaming. With the exception of shooters and MMORPG's (they have 2 big one's coming out this year).

If you are looking for more than those 2 types of games, you are hurting.

I'm confident "the next big thing" will come along. Something that confirms why we play computer games and not consoles. Something that cannot be done on a console. There are many things that can't be done on a console, but I'm talking about something new.

	23-07-2004 20:19									#6
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I happen to agree in part. Computer games do seem to run in stages. But I still think we are at a stagnant point in gaming. With the exception of shooters and MMORPG's (they have 2 big one's coming out this year). If you are looking for more than those 2 types of games, you are hurting. I'm confident "the next big thing" will come along. Something that confirms why we play computer games and not consoles. Something that cannot be done on a console. There are many things that can't be done on a console, but I'm talking about something new.

maybe the lull in the console market is the time for PC publishers to focus on FPS and RPG's (which compete head to head with consoles) and the time when the next gen consoles come out is the time to switch back to strat games, new ideas, etc?

Anything like that in the past? Didnt the Sims come out right about the time that PS2 and Xbox came out? (One hopes a future example will be a better game than the Sims, though just as original and just as popular)

	23-07-2004 20:36									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Computer Games in terms of innovation and quality have been steadily declining since the boom years of 1995-1996. Just a look at the major game magazines lends truth to this claim.

If you open a Computer Gaming World from that period, you will notice that it has 200-400 pages and about 100-200 of those are filled with ads- all sorts of ads from wargaming small houses to large 10 page ads from Eidos advertising their newest line.

However, starting in 1997, the boom ended and magazines such as PC Accelerator and some of the british magazines either consolidated or went bankrupt.

The boom was over.

CGW shrank to 150-200 pages at the maximum, and the others all found themselves in financial trouble. Then they started a cycle of renewal, redoing the design of their magazines every 2 years or less.

Starting in 2003, Computer Games Magazine realized it couldn't compete and started a "Now Playing" section in the back that stole valuable space from PC game-reviews in exchange for reviewing Console games and movies.

-
As for games themselves, a progression can be seen.
1995-1998 were the years of the RTS. There was much cloning and much innovation going on then.

Then in 1997-2000 there was the year of the isometeric RPG, with Diablo, Baldur's Gate, BG II, Planescape:Torment, Icewind Dale, IWD II, Diablo II, NeverWinter Nights and many other innovative games released during this period.

However, the only truly 'big' games of the period after 1998 were games like "The Sims" and "Rollercoaster Tycoon"... even the FPS's didn't really hit it that big with the remarkable exception of "Half-Life"... Quake II came out in 1996 (I think) and the Unreal Tournament sales, though good, are merely lackluster compared to what they 'should' be. There basically are no 'blockbuster' titles.

The blame, I think lies in cost-cutting, costs-of-development, and game piracy.

The rise of Napster and Kazaa in 2000-2004 sounded the death knell for computer games. suddenly, producing them does not make for profitability, and without profitability, companies can't make more complicated games.

Look at the current trend.

*Civ III is by all measures, a downgrade from Civ II.

*Heroes IV is vastly inferior to Heroes III, having less units, castles, and options.

*Railroad Tycoon III is trash compared to Railroad Tycoon II... It's a downgrade!

This trend towards minimialization is aggravated even more by the trend towards 3D.

With games like Neverwinter Nights going 3D- deep, meaningful games like Baldur's Gate are harder to produce. More resources are spent on 3D than in creating options for the player and story.

Indeed, games like Theme Park Tycoon when Compared to Rollercoaster Tycoon prove this point. You could 'ride' Rollercoasters in Theme Park Tycoon, but what did that add to the game- it just took away from the games main focus of building a park...

sadly RCT III is heading down the same road of idiocy and 3D... and I mourn for the inevitable demise of the series.
--

Personally, my own feelings are that 3D instantly ruins any game that it touches (with the exception of FPS's and some RTS's [now that the technology is starting to come of age])

3D looks ugly, it doesn't look real- and isometeric 2D allows for easier visibility and maneuverability.

-
Thus, a combination of
*Piracy
and
*3D

have led to-

*Rising Costs

which have led to-

* Less Developers
* Simpler Games
* Less Games
* Less Innovation (because the risks cost too much)

And unless 3D gets remarkably better in the near future or someone finds an easy way to pirate console games on the internet (Thank god for the Playstation III's upcoming internet hookability and the X-Box's hookability ), I will have to say-

R.I.P. Respectable/Quality PC Gaming.

	23-07-2004 23:28									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I may get heartily flamed for this, but here goes:

Modding.

I always get annoyed when PC gamers make increasingly vocal demands for games to be modding friendly, and so on, often placing a greater priority on modding than anything else; even elementary stuff like interface, control and stability.

And, often, the publishers are only to happy to provide. The reason? Money. Why bother paying a load of expensive programmers to add value to your game, when there's modders out there who work for free? Sure, most mods are not very good, but the price is right.

Even when a really, really, rancid game gets released, there's always a group of unpaid enthusiasts who're prepared to 'mod it to perfection'. But the work that they do is money in the bank for the publishers of the crappy game, since if there's a good set of mods about, then people are going to buy the game.

So basically, the publishers have an incentive to produce a crappy game with good modding capabilities, rather than a good game. And in my view, even the best mods in the world are no match for a professionally produced game. Add to that the fact that modding can be complicated and somewhat alienating to any new gamer, and you have a recipe for the gradual weakening of the PC games market.

I'd either:

Make more games without any modding capabilties at all; they encourage developers to be lazy and 'leave it to the modders'.

Or:

Pay modders. Some sort of incentive, rather than just hoping that their devotion will last. How many really interesting mods have you heard of, but have come to nothing or been left unfinished?
People who are effectively putting money into the games developers pocket should be compensated somehow, anyway.

	23-07-2004 23:59									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

modding rules!! All games should have some space for modding.

But I agree in part. Because sometimes they slack on the actual gameplay and plot. Neverwinter Nights original campaign is an example in this. It could have been better.

	24-07-2004 00:07									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

maybe consoles will actualy be the saviours of gaming? [ducks flying projectiles]

No please just give me a momment

I think consoles are actually becoming more like home computers - in terms of the kind of games they can run.

They just have less functionality/accesibility, which by itself is a big deterant to the casual pirate(i'm sure most people have downloaded a 'free' game/program at least once - even if just to try it out).

I think the 'push' i feel in the industry to console gaming is partialy one of economic survival. And as consoles get more powerful i think we will see much more development that will go from console to pc and not the other way around.
The console release will help the company stay solvent, while the PC version can be released and if its 'pirated' it wont mean the end of the company.

So in a weird way it will be the consoles that will save PC gaming in the future, because of the demand of their audience for more sophisticated pc style games.

with the likes of KOTOR, Morrowind, LMA manager 2004, Fable etc - deep complicated games that were once only possible on PC's, PC gaming in the future will be ok - plus it will have the advantage of the niche market developers

	24-07-2004 00:24									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sandman And in my view, even the best mods in the world are no match for a professionally produced game.

Counter strike.
Team Fortress
Painkeep
Zark mutator


........

	24-07-2004 00:33									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm confident "the next big thing" will come along. Something that confirms why we play computer games and not consoles. Something that cannot be done on a console. There are many things that can't be done on a console, but I'm talking about something new.

Actually there isnt anything that cant be done in console anymore. and theres alot of things in PS, while you can get it done, doesnt get done well in console.

	24-07-2004 00:44									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor maybe consoles will actualy be the saviours of gaming? [ducks flying projectiles] No please just give me a momment I think consoles are actually becoming more like home computers - in terms of the kind of games they can run. They just have less functionality/accesibility, which by itself is a big deterant to the casual pirate(i'm sure most people have downloaded a 'free' game/program at least once - even if just to try it out). I think the 'push' i feel in the industry to console gaming is partialy one of economic survival. And as consoles get more powerful i think we will see much more development that will go from console to pc and not the other way around. The console release will help the company stay solvent, while the PC version can be released and if its 'pirated' it wont mean the end of the company. So in a weird way it will be the consoles that will save PC gaming in the future, because of the demand of their audience for more sophisticated pc style games. with the likes of KOTOR, Morrowind, LMA manager 2004, Fable etc - deep complicated games that were once only possible on PC's, PC gaming in the future will be ok - plus it will have the advantage of the niche market developers

well at some level i dont mind if the a couple of more genre migrate to consoles, as long as my favorite niche genres can survive.

What Im afraid of is the PC death spiral - if you lose the RPGS, etc at what point does that cut into total PC game sales so much that an EB or a Walmart decides to go all the way and eliminate the PC games category - and if they do so, does that hurt sales for the more mainstream strat games that the entire strat genre ends up looking a lot like the historic wargame genre now does?

Or do internet sales make up for that? Or is the Strat genre, the casual genre, the portions of the FPS genre that dont work so well on consoles, etc enough to keep PC games as a section in bricks and mortar retailers?

	24-07-2004 00:52									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Zero Actually there isnt anything that cant be done in console anymore. and theres alot of things in PS, while you can get it done, doesnt get done well in console.

IMHO the xbox has really changed the perspective of console gaming. the xbox is really a PC - just a harder to hack one, which is a good thing from the developers perspective.
Maybe depending on what happens with xbox2 could have a big effect on the PC's fortunes as a gaming platform?

	24-07-2004 01:05									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark well at some level i dont mind if the a couple of more genre migrate to consoles, as long as my favorite niche genres can survive. What Im afraid of is the PC death spiral - if you lose the RPGS, etc at what point does that cut into total PC game sales so much that an EB or a Walmart decides to go all the way and eliminate the PC games category - and if they do so, does that hurt sales for the more mainstream strat games that the entire strat genre ends up looking a lot like the historic wargame genre now does? Or do internet sales make up for that? Or is the Strat genre, the casual genre, the portions of the FPS genre that dont work so well on consoles, etc enough to keep PC games as a section in bricks and mortar retailers?

Well this may be where the console(in the guise of the xbox) will help fuel the PC market. The benefits of having a relatively duel compatible platform to develope on must be very large. If your xbox version sells at $50 and does well - your on fairly safe territory with the PC version.
You can see it happening more and more with an xbox+PC duel release, smallish to medium houses like this duality.
While the PS is such the market leader in the console field it can rely on that alone to ensure new product, this part of the console market will have very little direct bearing on PC releases except where big titles are concerned(and they usualy get the cross market treatment).

But with the xbox i'm kinda looking at it being a good ally for PC games in the long run. Plus that platform simularity means i get to play the kind of games i prefer on my console as well.

	24-07-2004 01:14									#16
	Put an end to popups!

How many of these freaking threads are we going to have a year?

	24-07-2004 01:15									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How many of these freaking threads are we going to have a year?

im sorry - when was the last one?

	24-07-2004 01:57									#18
	Suffering from ads?

we need at least one a year .

Until they have a game like civ3 on a console, I can care less about them.

I want adult games, not kiddie games. Even Kotor is easy and simplistic- but it is fun.

	24-07-2004 03:28									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I wonder if part of the problem is that gaming is now an acceptable pastime that most people admit to. By that i mean even 10 years ago it was considered a bit geeky or weird here in the UK at least. The playstation made gaming acceptable and moved it out of teenage boys' bedrooms and into the living room. The downside of this growth was what someone here called Sunday gamers - they don't read reviews, buy judging on the cover or their grandparents buy their games - they're not enthusiasts. As the market widens so its gets more small niches (hex wargames ?) but also the big publishers will want to aim for the lowest common denominator to get casual buyers in.

Agree with the 3D as well - it almost seems like we'll do it because we can. Feels like CGI in films in the late 90s - doesn't quite work yet but it's the latest fad so in it goes.

	24-07-2004 03:35									#20
	Tired of ads?

Sandman

quote: Modding. I always get annoyed when PC gamers make increasingly vocal demands for games to be modding friendly, and so on, often placing a greater priority on modding than anything else; even elementary stuff like interface, control and stability. And, often, the publishers are only to happy to provide. The reason? Money. Why bother paying a load of expensive programmers to add value to your game, when there's modders out there who work for free? Sure, most mods are not very good, but the price is right. Even when a really, really, rancid game gets released, there's always a group of unpaid enthusiasts who're prepared to 'mod it to perfection'. But the work that they do is money in the bank for the publishers of the crappy game, since if there's a good set of mods about, then people are going to buy the game. So basically, the publishers have an incentive to produce a crappy game with good modding capabilities, rather than a good game. And in my view, even the best mods in the world are no match for a professionally produced game. Add to that the fact that modding can be complicated and somewhat alienating to any new gamer, and you have a recipe for the gradual weakening of the PC games market. I'd either: Make more games without any modding capabilties at all; they encourage developers to be lazy and 'leave it to the modders'.

What games have modding ruined? Provide an example? All I can see is good games being made great- and in ways that the developers never foresaw.

Half-Life is one example- the developers never could have done everything modders did because a game does ONE thing... the mods allow it to do MANY things.

HOMM III is another amazing game that mods/scenarios added replayability.

The Sims is another example... and the designers kept releasing free content on the internet.
-

I don't usually buy games unless they are moddable. I want to be able to extend replayablity and generally games like Command and Conquer are too hard for me to beat the regular scenarios so I need to make my own

	24-07-2004 04:12									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

the main reason for pc gaming sucking right now is the combination of having huge development costs and having almost no one to buy those games because the system requirements are so high. that's just my personal feeling because i look at doom 3 and think it looks fanatastic but there is no way i'm going to upgrade just to play it. even tradional games which ran perfect on every pc now a few years ago require monster pcs to get the most out of(yes, civ 3 i'm talking about you).

also there is this -

quote: The other developers told me I was daft to write a space based strategy game for OS/2! So I wrote Galactic Civilizations for OS/2. I was a college student back then so I couldn't afford to get it into the stores. So a publisher called Advanced Idea Machines "published" it. They never paid us royalties and disappeared soon after. Since I had no money, I couldn't afford a lawyer at the time. So I got smart. Stardock would publish the OS/2 sequel Galactic Civilizations II. So we made the game, manufactured the boxes, took care of all the marketing and getting it into the stores. And just to be safe, we had two distributors. One called Micro Central and the other one called Blue Orchards. Both went went out of business owing us hundreds of thousands of dollars. That particular incident nearly wiped out Stardock. But no matter, we recovered. We clawed our way back up and made it into the Windows market. We decided to make a Windows version and we decided to work with a well known publisher on it (Strategy First). This time everything would go perfectly... Well, that was a year and a half ago and we're still waiting for royalty payments on most of their sales. But this time, we had an out -- direct electronic sales. People were able to buy the game directly from us and download the game. So don't talk to me about piracy. It's not the pirates that have ripped us off of hundreds of thousands in lost royalties. It's been "Real businesses" doing that thank you very much. The position of royalty eating parasite has already been taken.

http://www.joeuser.com/articlecomme...D=21895&s=1&u=0

	24-07-2004 05:31									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dissident we need at least one a year . Until they have a game like civ3 on a console, I can care less about them. I want adult games, not kiddie games. Even Kotor is easy and simplistic- but it is fun.

"Console games" does not necessarily equal "kids' games". At least not yet.

	24-07-2004 16:06									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Scratchware anybody?

quote: The phrase scratchware game essentially means a computer game, created by a microteam, with pro quality art, game design, programming and sound to be sold at paperback book store prices. A scratchware game can be played by virtually anyone who can reach a keyboard and read. Scratchware games are brief (possibly fifteen minutes to an hour or so), extremely replayable, satisfying, challenging, and entertaining.

	24-07-2004 16:43									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

PC gaming will undoubtedly survive, though the trend towards certain genres will continue. FPS/RPG are solid genres, and the PC offers something over and above the consoles in my view, though the console versions of those genres are liked by many.

RTS, as much as some here hate it, is a genre where the PC wins hands down. With MP being more important than it ever has been this is a key point IMO.

Plus, I'll always play TBS, though it's fair to say only a few games can command mass sales these days.

	24-07-2004 20:15									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: the main reason for pc gaming sucking right now is the combination of having huge development costs and having almost no one to buy those games because the system requirements are so high

Huge Development Costs= a factor YES
System Reqs= NO.
Very few games have high system reqs... those are mainly the shooters/etc. that always have sold well on the PC and continue to do so- the DOOMS and Quakes of the world- Unreal Tournament and the like just never hit it as big- although they honestly should have... but they just didn't have as big a casual following and that led to core gamers pirating their software and thereby ruining their sales.

If you ever travel to Thailand or Eastern Europe, you will see thousands of pirated CD's undercutting the real CD prices...

And it's very easy to pirate games if you have DSL or Cable or T1 hookups... or just have a friend who has a CD rewritable.

That, I believe is why game prices have drastically fallen... they used to be 50-60+ now they cost 20-40 on average... and while this is good for the consumer- the companies aren't getting enough money from sales.

as for GalCiv's complaints- royalties only appear after the advance has paid for itself... now I don't know his full details- but his game just didn't sell is what I assume. at least with Strategy First. Since otherwise the non-payment would border on illegal (nonetheless, I will admit, it's hard to nail a company for that) But I doubt that galCiv outsold its advance.

	24-07-2004 20:17									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The only system req. I can admit to as being a factor is just an idiotic quirk of NeverWinter Nights in that it needs a VERY SPECIFIC graphics card to run under. And that has nothing to do with expensive computers... frankly, a 1GHz Pentium outfitted reasonably well only costs about 300 right now. That's easier to buy than a medium-line IBM PC 386 in 1994!

	24-07-2004 22:06									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud That, I believe is why game prices have drastically fallen... they used to be 50-60+ now they cost 20-40 on average... and while this is good for the consumer- the companies aren't getting enough money from sales.

Well...

Brad Wardell said piracy is not a big problem. A recent Stanford/UNC study on music filesharing also concluded that it does not hamper sales.

The main thing is most companies spend too much time on eye candy and not enough time on the game itself.

	25-07-2004 00:58									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Brad Wardell posted a blog on exactly that same topic (same title) somewhere I can't remember.
He pointed out that one strength of PC games was, indeed, modding: You can't mod on a console, you can on PC. It's its main strength. When I come back to civII, I ususally don't play vanilla CivII but a mod instead (typically Seeds of Greatness) before I'll go back to vanilla civII.
PC games strengths include multiplayer over the net, but consoles will reach the web soon so one might think they can compete there. They can't becasue they lack a keyboard for chatting.
This means that MMORPGs are on the rise and will continue. The problem is these should naturally sell on the web, and often have monthly fees which are not taken into account when one looks at the 'game sales'. So I suspect that PC gaming has a bigger share than what's shown in the stats.

And I agree about 3D. It's mostly useless, sometimes harmful, rarely useful. I still prefer top-down views mydelf...

	25-07-2004 01:03									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: What games have modding ruined? Provide an example? All I can see is good games being made great- and in ways that the developers never foresaw.

Dissident already mentioned Neverwinter Nights as a game that was supposed to be modding-happy, but turned out lacklustre.

MOO3 is another one. There's a selection of mods that make it good - but why on earth wasn't it good to begin with? Same with the Call to Power series.

The first civ3 expansion pack had a load of fanmade stuff on it, not all of it that good, a perfect example of a games company cashing in on whatever mods were about.

There's certainly some games companies who can be devoted enough to produce good games and have some modding support, but the temptation to release a rubbish game and have the fans fix it for free is always there.

	25-07-2004 05:04									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think 2003 was rock bottom for PC games. In every other year, I can think of multiple games that were absolutely incredible. Even fairly recently there were some great games. 2002 brought us Warcraft III, Battlefield 1942, and Neverwinter Nights. However, I will grant you that none of them were spectacular. But they were three very well refined games from the three major genres. 2001 brought us Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Civ3, Black and White (included not because it was a great game, but because it was extremely original) Serious Sam, and Max Payne.