28-07-2004 04:37									#91
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the cost wouldn't be so high if everyone didn't insist on 3D and the highest graphics. I don't need cutting edge graphics, although I do prefer something decent to look at.

But I play ugly games like SMAC. So graphics can't be too important to me .

	28-07-2004 06:00									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the cost wouldn't be so high if everyone didn't insist on 3D and the highest graphics.

Yes. At times in this thread it seems like some people think companies do this just to spite us. They don't, they respond to their customer base. With casual gamers (who like eye candy) outnumbering more serious gamers by a larger margin than ever this is a key point.

However, as I always say in these threads, overall the standard of games today in absolute terms is the best ever. It's easy to remember the Civs and the X-Coms and forget all the absolutely pants games you had to play to get to them.

	28-07-2004 06:12									#93
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I like some eye candy, even though my computer is never state of the art (so I can never use full gfx).

Kotor is a good example. The big decors and planets really did something to the athmosphere. Too bad on the other hand because of that the world is a lot smaller. Most locations were pretty straightforward, you knew what you had to do.

	28-07-2004 10:25									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike However, as I always say in these threads, overall the standard of games today in absolute terms is the best ever. It's easy to remember the Civs and the X-Coms and forget all the absolutely pants games you had to play to get to them.

the quality is at the best ever but the total number of releases are a fraction of what they were before. years ago there were many better games just because so many more pc games were released. the problem is there aren't many smaller developers like there used to be.

	28-07-2004 19:02									#95
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Personally I think the quality is the same. You get plenty of dull, mediocre or just plain buggy games every year. The best games are definitely very good but of late I have not found a truly excellent and replayable game to match the old classics.

Perhaps you could argue that its partly a matter of income and tastes. Now that I have penty of spare cash I can buy a new game the minute an old one palls slightly, while in the past it was a choice between the 100th game of Civ or Master of Magic or nothing at all. I don't like FPS and that seems to be where many of todays "best" games come from.

	28-07-2004 22:17									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Yes. At times in this thread it seems like some people think companies do this just to spite us. They don't, they respond to their customer base. With casual gamers (who like eye candy) outnumbering more serious gamers by a larger margin than ever this is a key point. However, as I always say in these threads, overall the standard of games today in absolute terms is the best ever. It's easy to remember the Civs and the X-Coms and forget all the absolutely pants games you had to play to get to them.

I wonder if there are any games that were strong on gameplay, and were 2d and otherwise weak on graphics, that have been released in the last year or two and done poorly?

Galciv I suppose? But didnt that make money, though only be restricting itself to nontraditional retail channels?

Im not disputing that publishers are driven to 3d graphics by their customer base - im just not sure that that is what is keeping the other kinds of games from being made, or at least not in isolation (from issues of shelfspace, etc)

	29-07-2004 02:00									#97
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I wonder if there are any games that were strong on gameplay, and were 2d and otherwise weak on graphics, that have been released in the last year or two and done poorly?

SNK VS Capcom Chaos.............. SHUDDER IN DISGUST!!!!!

	29-07-2004 02:03									#98
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Lets see, how about naming games that have real good 3d graphics but absolutely nothing else?

	29-07-2004 02:26									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Lets see, how about naming games that have real good 3d graphics but absolutely nothing else?

thats not the point, im sure people could come with those - my question was relative to the notion that anything thats 2d will tank in the current market, even if its otherwise good.

	29-07-2004 03:31									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Lets see, how about naming games that have real good 3d graphics but absolutely nothing else?

Quake 3

	29-07-2004 04:44									#101
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Idiot.

	29-07-2004 11:25									#102
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark thats not the point, im sure people could come with those - my question was relative to the notion that anything thats 2d will tank in the current market, even if its otherwise good.

i think u misunderstood me, whatever that was you took it as.... i was simply trying to go off topic.

i say farcry. that game had nothign except good graphics..... ok maybe story plot. i wouldnt know if it had it. because you know me, id rather read a good book for story plot.....

traj: q3 wil never be on that list..... thats the nice version

mean version STFU n00b!!!!! OMG OMG WTF LOL

	29-07-2004 16:43									#103
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark thats not the point, im sure people could come with those - my question was relative to the notion that anything thats 2d will tank in the current market, even if its otherwise good.

LotM you shouldn't ask for examples as proof, since if the proposition is true there would be no or few examples, since developers behaviour is endogenous here.

	29-07-2004 20:07									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike LotM you shouldn't ask for examples as proof, since if the proposition is true there would be no or few examples, since developers behaviour is endogenous here.

I presume youre saying that developers at least tried 2d games, which did poorly and learned from that. Which would mean there would be examples, though perhaps not as recent as I specified. Or are you saying their market research is SO good they KNOW a good gameplay 2d game would tank, without having to look at the experience of actual releases? Its possible, Im really not up on market research techniques in consumer products.

	29-07-2004 23:26									#105
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oh wait, i can answer all those with example from fighting game genre in japan.....

2d games that sucked: SVC: Chaos
2d games that was huge success: Guilty Gear XX

However, i cant think of any examples thats recent in US.... I think US market demands good graphics over gameplay more......... guilty gear did tank in US market.... but then again any fighter seems to tank in US these days.

	30-07-2004 05:00									#106
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What's tanking?

	30-07-2004 05:21									#107
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In this instance it means to perform badly.

	30-07-2004 09:58									#108
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I have a theory on this whole situation re: piracy, falling games sales etc.

Oft times I hear about a game. It might sound interesting in the review, in screenshots, and maybe even a Demo video. But to spend that much on a new game I have only HEARD/READ about is hard to justify. This is why I loved shareware. You got a real test of what the game was like for a substantial portion of it, and then you'd go and buy if it was the right one for you. Back then (this is almost ten years ago) games were easier to afford new, and I was just a teenager with a small allowance and a part-time weekend job.

But now games don't come out as shareware. If you're lucky you get a scaled-down demo version that shows you a little of what the game is like. Otherwise you get a flashy video that shows you nothing of the game itself. Useless hype, like in theatres. Except at least a movie is only a couple of hours long and can be a quick thrill, whereas a game is expensive and you don't want to waste all that money on something that loses its appeal in a few hours.

I am very happy my local video store has PC games to rent, so I can try said games out. They don;t get all new games though, so at times I have got copies of the games I was interested in trying through other means. For the games I like once I've tried (like Diablo II), I find I end up buying them sooner or later, for the right price (read: anything 75% or less of the initial over-priced day-of-release amount). For those I don't, no foul, as I wouldn;t even have tried them if I had had to buy them brand new just to do so.

So how to fix this and where to lay the blame? The demise of shareware games I think comes from the incresing complexity of new games, making shareware difficult to create. But at the same time I don;t see why you couldn;t have what is effectively the full game that expires after a certain period of time or number of uses as shareware.

So, for me at least, I buy far fewer games than ten years ago, despite my disposable income having gone up more than 20-fold because new games are overpriced on release (much better when they are released some time later as some kind of ' Platinum' or 'Budget' collection for a fraction of the price), and I can;t try before I buy. The combination of a huge price and limited chance to test games out means I buy fewer of them than I did once, and the ones I do buy are those I know to be worthwhile. It's just not worth the cost to buy a untested, potentially dud game, unless I have some history with the company/game series.

	30-07-2004 19:36									#109
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I am very happy my local video store has PC games to rent, so I can try said games out. .

dont htink we have these here in the USA at all - only game rentals are console rentals.

	30-07-2004 20:03									#110
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just to reiterate piracy is nothing new. Back in the days with floppy disks, those could easily be copied.

I'm ashamed to say I never paid for x-com or master of magic . Such great games. Perhaps I'm responsible for microproses demise .

There was this place you could rent games from where I lived in Newport News, and then you could just copy them and return them

	30-07-2004 20:10									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident just to reiterate piracy is nothing new. Back in the days with floppy disks, those could easily be copied. I'm ashamed to say I never paid for x-com or master of magic . Such great games. Perhaps I'm responsible for microproses demise . There was this place you could rent games from where I lived in Newport News, and then you could just copy them and return them

which i think is why PC games arent availble for rent anymore - yet ANOTHER argument on the piracy issue, i think.

	30-07-2004 21:51									#112
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The big difference between now and then is that production costs now are so incredibly big that releasing shareware won't make up for that.

	30-07-2004 23:12									#113
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The point about piracy is that pirates wouldn't buy the games no matter what, so the companies don't actually lose that much money, unless you consider they wanted to make money by selling crap knowingly, in which case they deserve what they get.
I agree with the MrWhereItsAt about demos and playable versions of games. I almost never buy a game unless I played a demo (mostly because I'm not sure my computer can run the game). Having the full game for a limited amount of time is possible. It was done by Troika for Temple of Elemental Evil for instance. You could play 3 or 4 hours for free and then decide to buy it or not. This way of providing easy access to try the game is important imo in order to know if a game is worth buying.

	01-08-2004 11:04									#114
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark which i think is why PC games arent availble for rent anymore - yet ANOTHER argument on the piracy issue, i think.

not really ps1/ps2/xbox games are pretty easy to pirate you just need some general computer knowledge. of course that probably stops quite a few people. you can find lots of console games on filesharing networks.

	02-08-2004 02:13									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident just to reiterate piracy is nothing new. Back in the days with floppy disks, those could easily be copied. I'm ashamed to say I never paid for x-com or master of magic . Such great games. Perhaps I'm responsible for microproses demise . There was this place you could rent games from where I lived in Newport News, and then you could just copy them and return them

Possible, but the MPS demise has more to do with some risky and unwarranted business decisions like making a foray into arcade machines. Furthermore the retail business knows the game better than most (smaller) software houses (at elast back then), they want kickbacks, a refund policy, large discounts etc...A software house that misreads the market are orders far to many copies could end with a warehouse full of returned and unsellable games.

Fact is that piracy remains a nice scapegoat for those business cockups

	02-08-2004 18:35									#116
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quote: Originally posted by pg not really ps1/ps2/xbox games are pretty easy to pirate you just need some general computer knowledge. of course that probably stops quite a few people. you can find lots of console games on filesharing networks.

so why are rentals of PS2 and xbox games so widespread, and there are no PC game rentals in the US anymore?

	02-08-2004 18:44									#117
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so why are rentals of PS2 and xbox games so widespread, and there are no PC game rentals in the US anymore?

I would think part of the answer to this is ease of use, obviously it is much easier to play a PS2 or xbox game from the time you get home from renting it whereas the same with a PC game involves installation, potential hardware conflicts, etc. Therefore, for someone not interested in pirating and taking advantage, xbox and PS2 are the easier formats to use.

	02-08-2004 19:09									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk I would think part of the answer to this is ease of use, obviously it is much easier to play a PS2 or xbox game from the time you get home from renting it whereas the same with a PC game involves installation, potential hardware conflicts, etc. Therefore, for someone not interested in pirating and taking advantage, xbox and PS2 are the easier formats to use.

yeah but the hardware conflict issue exists for sales as well, and is a bigger risk in that case. Yet PC game SALES are still widespread.

I suppose one could argue that its not worth the installation time for a rental, that im not gonna play that long. I just dont see that, but who knows.

	02-08-2004 21:05									#119
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I would guess that part of it is that installation of a pc game feels much more permanent than simply popping a cartridge (or disc) into a console.