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Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
Thumbs up  Old Post 25-07-2004 17:54
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Rational agent. Self Interest. Bull***t. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stor...w/97380/1/.html

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 18:12
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Huh?

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 18:49
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The anti-altruism crowd is gonna say that to the winner, the satisfaction of helping is greater than that he could have derived from anything he could have bought for his millions.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 18:51
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And ignore that said satisification is derived from something completely selfless.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 18:59
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quote:
The anti-altruism crowd is gonna say that to the winner, the satisfaction of helping is greater than that he could have derived from anything he could have bought for his millions.

Which is untrue.

yaroslav is offline yaroslav
Emperor
Madrid, Spain, Europe
Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 19:04
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BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 19:05 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Edit:

I thought over it, and now I say to the selfish bastard who only wanted to derive satisfaction from helping others

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
And ignore that said satisification is derived from something completely selfless.


It's not selfless. As LC said, he derived happiness from the fact that he was helping others. That's the closest to "selfless" anyone ever comes - getting happiness from others' happiness.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 19:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


It's not selfless. As LC said, he derived happiness from the fact that he was helping others.

I didn't say that. I said that the anti-altruism crowd was going to say that.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 19:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


It's not selfless. As LC said, he derived happiness from the fact that he was helping others. That's the closest to "selfless" anyone ever comes - getting happiness from others' happiness.


Yes, that's as close as anyone gets because that's what selflessness is - wanting to see other people happy. Altruism.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 19:10
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quote:
It's not selfless. As LC said, he derived happiness from the fact that he was helping others. That's the closest to "selfless" anyone ever comes - getting happiness from others' happiness.



He chose the happiness of others over his own ( Imagine what he could do with all that money! ) The fact that he enjoyed it, doesn't mean that he didn't sacrifice his own happiness. After all, he recieved less happiness than he could've. ( Living la vida loca with a million bucks >> feeling good after giving a way a million bucks )

David Floyd is offline David Floyd
King
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:07 Visit David Floyd's homepage!
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*shrug* Things like this just goes to show that private charitable donations can be an effective means of helping others in need, and, given the opportunity, people WILL donate money for charitable causes. Without income taxes, donations would likely be higher - the presence of income taxes, Social Security taxes, etc., is the entire reason why I refuse to donate money. I already AM "donating", at gunpoint.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:09
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quote:
After all, he recieved less happiness than he could've. ( Living la vida loca with a million bucks >> feeling good after giving a way a million bucks


You really think so?

Besides, the self-interest "altruism is impossible" theorists never stated that one's utility function had to exclude other's utility functions..

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:18
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quote:
You really think so?

I am rather sure.

quote:

Besides, the self-interest "altruism is impossible" theorists never stated that one's utility function had to exclude other's utility functions.

I don't fully understand what you try to say...


DF: I never claimed that people won't give unless forced to. However, my pov is their help won't be enough.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue


You really think so?

Besides, the self-interest "altruism is impossible" theorists never stated that one's utility function had to exclude other's utility functions..


It's simply not included. It's not necessary to state the exclusion. It doesn't even make sense to include atruism in with self-interest.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:20
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"I don't fully understand what you try to say..."

My utility function..a function of everything that gives me utility/happiness..good food, chicks, good music etc.

There's no reason why my utility function can't include other people's. So I get extra utility/happiness when they do.

Interesting things happen when you get two linking utility functions...

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:22 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
There's no reason why my utility function can't include other people's. So I get extra utility/happiness when they do.


Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:23
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"Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?"

Yes I did....

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:24
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quote:

My utility function..a function of everything that gives me utility/happiness..good food, chicks, good music etc.

There's no reason why my utility function can't include other people's. So I get extra utility/happiness when they do.

Interesting things happen when you get two linking utility functions...

Yes, but the "Self Interest" people claim that one wants to maximize one's own utility function. I fully agree that giving away that million dollar, instead on wasting them on boozing etc. is an increase in the overall utility ( Which is a sum of individual utilities), however that is not the maximum increase in his own utility that he could've achieved.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:26
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"Yes, but the "Self Interest" people claim that one wants to maximize one's own utility function. I fully agree that giving away that million dollar, instead on wasting them on boozing etc. is an increase in the overall utility ( Which is a sum of individual utilities), however that is not the maximum increase in his own utility that he could've achieved."

Are you listening to me..

"Altruistic" people are simply people whose utility function includes other people's utility function. Their happiness is linked to other people's. It's not that difficult..

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:27
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And Azazel ignore that clown Kidicious- ever read one of his economics threads?

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:28 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
"Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?"

Yes I did....


Ummm... Did you keep your textbooks? You need them now.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:36
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Jesus, not this crap again.

People simply do sacrifice their own happiness for others when they believe it is right to do so. Some people are motivated by the desire to see a better world for everyone, not for them. That's why people have preferences for things that can never make them happy (like leaving millions to charity in your will).

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:38
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@Aggie: In this view, anything anyone voluntarily does is, by definition, in his or her self-interest.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:43
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Yep, Aggie just validated that point .

Though I would say that living millions to charity in your will makes you happy or stops you from feeling guilt at the time.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:44
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Yes I know, and it is obviously absurd.

For example, I have the following preferences:

a) I wish that human beings would land on Mars. I don't care if it happens in my lifetime or no.

b) I would like our descendants 200 years from now to enjoy an unpolluted environment.

c) I would like to see less people in Africa starving, and I don't care whether or not I ever get to know about it.

So there you have it. Three preferences which almost anyone could have and which have no tie to my own personal happiness because in all three cases knowing that my preference is satisfied is explicitly unconnected to the satisfaction of my preference, so my motivation can't be personal happiness or self interest.

QED

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:44
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Btw, from the site:

quote:
"If this can help even a little those who have met with unhappiness and disaster, I would be very happy," the writer said in the letter dated on Thursday.


Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:46
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quote:
Utility is not simply happiness. Didn't you just get a degree in economics?

It is in the ethical sense. I don't know what you econ jocks mean, in your lingo.

quote:

"Altruistic" people are simply people whose utility function includes other people's utility function. Their happiness is linked to other people's. It's not that difficult..

"includes"? how does it do that? Again, do you really think that he is happier now than if he would keep the money? maybe there is some chance of him being happier right now, however, in two weeks, that theoretical margin has no chance of staying, since the material burden would more than cancel it. in a year, that little dot of happiness would be invisible compared to the mass of negative utility that would exist in all that concerns with his finances.

"utility" for a human being is defined as his own happiness. Making people happy may increase it, but it's not a simple addition. For example, feeling good about making someone happy last for two weeks. ( And you get the utility by the "happiness felt by person at a particular moment times the time that happiness lasted" . )
Having almost 2 million bucks in the bank might not make you feel that good ( and I say that this is not true, as well), but it will make you feel that way for more time.


In short, what people want generally, is happiness, and just that. however, they're able to transcend over doing what they want and being considerate of what other people want. saying that they cannot is just BAMing, and saying that in that case happiness is not what the people want is assuming that people do what they want to, unless coherced into doing something else.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:49
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quote:
do you really think that he is happier now than if he would keep the money?


Actually? Yes, I think he is. Either because he really thinks those people need the money and he had the money to give or because he wouldn't suffer from guilt of not giving it.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 25-07-2004 22:53
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Why oh why must right wingers deny the obvious.

People can have and act in accordance with preferences for which there is no prospect of them ever yielding any personal utility.

This is just a fact.

Given that it is a fact, theories which attempt to state that all human motivation is selfish must be false.

You can't get any clearer than that.

 
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