26-07-2004 00:47									#61
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It seems noone has replied to me.

Satisfaction/Happiness is indeed a person's self interest. However, by giving up something, one can sometimes give up more happiness than recieve in the process of giving. That would make that action against his self interest. That would be a sacrifice. Just like the amount of happiness that a comrade recieves from jumping on a grenade is negligble in comparison to a life fully lived!

	26-07-2004 00:47									#62
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I'm agreeing with Park Avenue

	26-07-2004 00:49									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "What needs to be accepted is that satisification can be derived from doing things not in your self interest." This just doesn't make sense..if you deriving satisfaction from something (eating nice food, giving money to beggars), then those things are in your self-interest.

Go re-read my post. Again. Go read the post I made about cause and effect, too.

quote: But even if you do not want to seperate the action from the resulting happiness, it is still the cause that gives it meaning. Again, if the act is selfess the happiness inherits that selflessness because it is a result of the (selfless) action and is derived for selfless reasons. Look at it this way, the act of being happy at other people's benefit is altruistic.

	26-07-2004 00:50									#64
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So? Altruism and self-interest are not exclusive! Altruism is a subset of self-interested behavior.

	26-07-2004 00:51									#65
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I'm so happy I'm not a right-winger.

	26-07-2004 00:53									#66
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QED.

	26-07-2004 00:57									#67
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quote: So? Altruism and self-interest are not exclusive! Altruism is a subset of self-interested behavior.

have you read anything, but anything from what I've written?

	26-07-2004 00:58									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So? Altruism and self-interest are not exclusive! Altruism is a subset of self-interested behavior.

Ah-ha! So you are no longer arguing that altruism does not exist?

If you simply want to hold the view that everything you do is in your interest because it's what you happen to be doing, go ahead. It's a ridiculously blatant, obvious, and redundant thing to say, but go ahead and say it. You can say that red is red and blue is blue while you're at it, too. Just don't say that altruism doesn't exist.

	26-07-2004 01:00									#69
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quote: Ah-ha! So you are no longer arguing that altruism does not exist?

I may not agree with you fully on this topic, but...

LOL OMG PWNZD N00B!!!!!11111111

	26-07-2004 01:02									#70
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You got to either accept that

i) Altruism doesn't exist

or ii) Altruism makes the giver feel some satisfaction too (so it is thus in his self-interest)

	26-07-2004 01:03									#71
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And as a subset of ii)..

You probably gain more satisfaction from fooling yourself into thinking it is a completely selfless act.

Like some here do..

	26-07-2004 01:04									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Of course it does. There's no inconsistency in having your own utility function rate itself based at least partly on others' utility functions. In fact, this is what vengeance is, just with someone becoming happy due to another's loss. In fact, this is what utilitarianism is! The total utility is the sum of everyone's happiness!

My point is, what is the purpose of assuming that people will do whatever makes them happy. We can not pin point a specific behavior, and so can not make predictions. If we assume that people don't give a crap about others utility we can make predictions. That's not to say that they actually are selfish.

	26-07-2004 01:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel However, by giving up something, one can sometimes give up more happiness than recieve in the process of giving.

They would either be acting outside of their self-interest, or they would be making a mistake then.

	26-07-2004 01:11									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue You got to either accept that i) Altruism doesn't exist or ii) Altruism makes the giver feel some satisfaction too (so it is thus in his self-interest)

I told you to re-read my post, not yours.

Get back to me when you can explain to me how deriving satisfication through completely selfless acts is self-interested. Aside from the ever popular, "because it makes you happy!", of course, which ignores all meaning and reason and just loops right back into the question.

	26-07-2004 01:15									#75
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"Get back to me when you can explain to me how deriving satisfication through completely selfless acts is self-interested."

Show me a completely selfless act.

	26-07-2004 01:15									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap God, this claptrap again- good posts Ludd Most people would not know "happiness" if it came and bit them in the ass. Self-interest has nothing to do with "feeling happy" in the "aww, I did good, I feel warm and shinny inside" way- it has to do with your relation vs other individuals and within the system. The obvious cases of self-interested charity would include corporations giving away stuff in order to claim the tax breaks, or things like that. Giving money to a beggar is not a self-interested act- aftyer all, you could in theory keep that money, invest it, and make sure your kids will be rich latter in life, securing your heritage and genes. That is self-interest, NOT a temporary and wanning emotional sensation like "feeling happy about giving charity".

I think Gepap is the one who uses the definition closer to the way Hobbes used it than anyone else.

	26-07-2004 01:19									#77
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Instead of side stepping each other on this topic, it would be usefull to state which definition of self-interest you are using when starting a thread.

	26-07-2004 01:20									#78
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Tell me this - would Hobbes consider buying a fancy car (as opposed to a cost-efficient one) or paying a hooker to be self-interested?

	26-07-2004 01:20									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Get back to me when you can explain to me how deriving satisfication through completely selfless acts is self-interested." Show me a completely selfless act.

I told you to avoid the "because it makes you happy" feedback loop.


Tell me how deriving happiness from someone elses benefit is self-interested.

And if your answer is "because it makes you happy" repeat the question again, and again, untill you come up with an answer that doesn't loop back on itself.

	26-07-2004 01:21									#80
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Because it achieves your goals!

	26-07-2004 01:24									#81
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quote: I told you to avoid the "because it makes you happy" feedback loop.

And I did. I first asked you to provide an example of a completely selfless act.

	26-07-2004 01:24									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because it achieves your goals!

I hope that was a joke.


But incase it wasn't, that's just a variation on 'it makes you happy'. How is achieving goals which are not in your self-interest a self-interested action? They are selfless goals, just as it would be selfless happiness.

	26-07-2004 01:25									#83
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Btw, all tautologies result in a feedback loop - so it's no detriment to the truth value of the statement.

	26-07-2004 01:25									#84
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My position is thus.

An altruistic act would be someone performing a completely selfless act.

But...

i) I doubt any act is completely selfless
ii) and if there was, no-one would do it

THis is just rationality.

	26-07-2004 01:31									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue And I did. I first asked you to provide an example of a completely selfless act.

Yes, so that I could give you one and then you could say... "but why do you want to do that? because it makes you.... happy? "


We've gone through that already.

	26-07-2004 01:58									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Tell me this - would Hobbes consider buying a fancy car (as opposed to a cost-efficient one) or paying a hooker to be self-interested?

All of these things are out of context. They are in the context of utility value theory. That starts with JS Mill.

	26-07-2004 02:00									#87
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How are they out of context?

EDIT: in fact, if Hobbes' definition is limited only to specific contexts, I'd say that's a failure right there - since we're making universal statements.

	26-07-2004 02:26									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker How are they out of context? EDIT: in fact, if Hobbes' definition is limited only to specific contexts, I'd say that's a failure right there - since we're making universal statements.

Philosophers didn't talk how goods produce different levels of utility (economic) until atleast Mill. Really they didn't talk specifically about it until after Marx. It's a reaction to the Marxist Labor Theory of Value.

And again, you seem to think there is some kind of universal context. It's usually not possible to make 'universal' statements, not in this case anyway.

	26-07-2004 02:27									#89
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Why not?

	26-07-2004 02:30									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why not?

Why not what?