26-07-2004 19:25									#1
	Shields Up! Tired of ads?

After tens of billions spent in tests over the past two decades, the missile defense shield just got its first interceptor in Alaska.

Don't you feel safe?

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/bmdo-04w.html

	26-07-2004 19:28									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Shee-it... they could've given me a mere 100 million and I would've chased down some missiles myself.

	26-07-2004 19:50									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I like your sig near the avatar, Thebes.

	26-07-2004 19:53									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let's hope no-one in the world has more than 20 missiles... and the hit rate is 100%.

What a waste of money.

	26-07-2004 19:57									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Why are you being so pessimistic, MikeH? don't you realize that this means that Osama can't launch his ICBMs anymore?

	26-07-2004 20:01									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The patriot missiles have consistently improved over the last 20 years. I have no reason to believe that the missile shield will not improve in like fashion.

	26-07-2004 20:02									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

How many missiles do they think Kim will have by the end of next year?

BTW is "robust test program" still shorthand for "it doesn't work properly but we'll fire a few off and claim it exceeds specifications anyway"?

	26-07-2004 20:03									#8
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, but the PAC-3 is madly expensive. Some guys here are developing a cheaper guidance system that would be just as useful.

	26-07-2004 20:03									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DanS The patriot missiles have consistently improved over the last 20 years.

Tell that to the relatives of the RAF Tornado crew shot down by a patriot battery over Iraq.

	26-07-2004 20:04									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

All of this crap is madly expensive, Azazel. Why should PAC-3 or the missile shield be any different?

	26-07-2004 20:06									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Tell that to the relatives of the RAF Tornado crew shot down by a patriot battery over Iraq.

Nothing is ever 100% in this business. I think you know this.

	26-07-2004 20:16									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: All of this crap is madly expensive, Azazel. Why should PAC-3 or the missile shield be any different?

Replace the word 'crap' with 'pork', and you're realize why it is.

for example, the Nautilus Tactical laser will cost 4-8k per shot, instead of the millions per a Patriot PAC3 missile.

The Arrow ABM cost the USA only a billion USD to develop, and I presume a similar amount was spent by Israel. So that's 2 billion for that threat. This is TENS of billions of dollars.

	26-07-2004 20:17									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DanS The patriot missiles have consistently improved over the last 20 years. I have no reason to believe that the missile shield will not improve in like fashion.

And this "shield" against a virtually non-existent threat cost how many additional Army and Marine divisions we could have been using to hunt down and kill real enemies with real capabilities?

So the missile shield improves - anyone who nukes us will have to use another delivery method.

	26-07-2004 20:18									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Tell that to the relatives of the RAF Tornado crew shot down by a patriot battery over Iraq.

The missile hit the target selected for it, did it not?

	26-07-2004 20:18									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: And this "shield" against a virtually non-existent threat cost how many additional Army and Marine divisions we could have been using to hunt down and kill real enemies with real capabilities? So the missile shield improves - anyone who nukes us will have to use another delivery method.

That's the most important part. The sky is the last place you should be looking for your incoming nukes.

	26-07-2004 21:00									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

i didn't hear about the tests at all... is this system actually accurate?

and i love how often times, when arguing in support of the missile defense shield, conservatives will obfuscate the difference between nkorea, a country with icbms and nuclear weapons, which the shield would protect against, and al qaeda, which is a non-state actor with no icbms and presumably at this point no nuclear weapons, before launching into a tirade about how liberals don't want americans to be safe because they oppose the missile shield, which will protect us from all nuclear attacks, including the ones sent by al qaeda.

	26-07-2004 21:03									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Sounds like a lot of money thrown into something that isn't a real application of any modern weaponry or could be integrated to one. Waste of money if you ask me.

	26-07-2004 21:04									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i didn't hear about the tests at all... is this system actually accurate?

I don't recall the system has been tested under any situations remotely close to what you might expect IRL.

But that is just a minor point. As we pointed out repeatedly before, sending a nuclear device on an ICBM at the US is the last thing any country or organisation would do. It's the most expensive delivery method, and it points right back to the launcher.

	26-07-2004 21:17									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: and i love how often times, when arguing in support of the missile defense shield, conservatives will obfuscate the difference between nkorea, a country with icbms and nuclear weapons, which the shield would protect against, and al qaeda, which is a non-state actor with no icbms and presumably at this point no nuclear weapons, before launching into a tirade about how liberals don't want americans to be safe because they oppose the missile shield, which will protect us from all nuclear attacks, including the ones sent by al qaeda.

Thanks for the strawman!

	26-07-2004 22:04									#20
	Remove this text

So after a round of made up testing they start putting in interceptors- well, if anyone launches the missile on a sunny day without any good dfecoys, why, there is a 70% chance we will get it! I feel safer already..not.

	26-07-2004 22:07									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Thanks for the strawman!

i personally wasn't arguing that, i was merely pointing out that that's the argument i've often seen used justifying the abm shield, and it's crap.

as far as this deployment goes, i'm rather unconfident in it since i didn't know it had even been tested. rather than being told that the abm shield will work, i'd like to see a demonstration with duds, you know?

	26-07-2004 22:10									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Is it on the great circle path from North Korea to the west coast?

	26-07-2004 22:10									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: i was merely pointing out that that's the argument i've often seen used justifying the abm shield, and it's crap.

I.e., you're arguing against a strawman.

	26-07-2004 22:11									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yeah and even if it would work and have some kind of odds, you know someone will just make a system that is able to fool the ABM shields or something simular to that.

THis system is certainly not the end of all weapons. Furthermore just thinking about how much it costs and how much REAL security it provides, well I'm not American and not taxpayer in there but I'd be pretty pissed off if it was my money.

	26-07-2004 22:12									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What's the company that's making these? I wanna invest so at least I can get some of my wasted tax dollars back.

	26-07-2004 22:12									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS The patriot missiles have consistently improved over the last 20 years. I have no reason to believe that the missile shield will not improve in like fashion.

So in 20 years we'll intercept two missiles?

	26-07-2004 22:13									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Is it on the great circle path from North Korea to the west coast?

i think alaska is a bit closer to nkorea than the pacific northwest via great circle.

quote: I.e., you're arguing against a strawman.

ah, i misunderstood what you meant.

	26-07-2004 22:16									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

The problem with installing an ABM system is that once it's in place, we'll start thinking we can actually use it to defend ourselves, as opposed to thinking, this thing never hit anything outside a rigged test and it'll be a generation or so before it's actually useful, so screw Seoul, let's mess with the DPRK!


What do you mean Seattle's gone???

	26-07-2004 22:21									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: What's the company that's making these? I wanna invest so at least I can get some of my wasted tax dollars back.

RTFA. Orbital Sciences.

	26-07-2004 22:32									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What's the company that's making these? I wanna invest so at least I can get some of my wasted tax dollars back.

I'd like to have the same right with the National Endowment for the Arts, but alas, I can't invest in the federal government (but then again, would I want to?) .