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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:35
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I did the same thing to China a while back with Germany. This is a screenshot from earlier in the game, just because I found the way the AI recognized and fortified that chokepoint, even deep in its own territory, interesting.
Anyway, a bit later, I controlled everything from the western musket man south, and China was left with only the landmass east of the chokepoint. I stationed my entire air force in Xinjian and on carriers nearby and began a massive bombardment campaign. With eight MIs and a couple of 4xMA armies holding my side of the chokepoint, I kept ground conflict to zero until I had killed every Chinese unit in the southern half of the landmass, then moved in with MA and razed a couple of cities. I pulled back to the chokepoint and repeated the process until only Beijing and the northern tundra cities remained. At that point, I destroyed every road and railroad surrounding Beijing, and also those connecting cities. The effect was to starve Beijing from 20 something down to one and leave the entire empire defenseless. At that point, I dropped paratroopers around Beijing, razing it the next turn. By the end of the war, there wasn't a living soul on what had been the Chinese homeland, but I had a lot of free labor. 
 Attachment: chinese ai fortifications - small.jpg
This has been downloaded 167 time(s).
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chuckdelicious
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I normally create my atrocities via nuclear weapons.
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barbeerhj
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They need to add....
In civ4, you should suffer a blow to your rep. when you ravage their society. In the real world, attacking the citizens and cities is considered atrocious to human rights, and the world looks down upon you.
Perhaps, when you bombard cities down to level 2 or 4 from level 20, it could be almost the same as a world declaring war upon you for nuking them.
In addition, what kind of defence do you have against being bombarded aside from walls and costal fortresses?
Finally, should they make an SDI system that is a city improvement other then a small wonder that can be notoriously poor in stopping nuclear assaults?
-Ron
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barbeerhj
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How can you have the patience to command that many artillery?
Even with the "continue bombard" option, I still do not know how to work it. I get fed up with pressing b and moving the mouse a little bit over.
-Ron
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Ijuin
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Tokyo, Japan
May 2002
time: 14:35
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"Bombardment failed" basically means that you missed your target. The reason that you seem to get more failures than the strength of the enemy defense implies is because game chooses what target you will attack (citizens, improvements, or units) without regard to whether or not there are actually any valid tergets. Thus, if there are no citizens to kill (i.e. a size one city), and the game selects "attack population", then you get an automatic failure. The game does not check whether or not there is anything to kill before deciding what should be attacked.
As for killing civilians being an atrocity, consider that as recently as WWII it was considered to be standard practice in war to demolish entire cities. It is only since then that the general populace has expected that attackers should deliberately minimize collateral damage--in earlier wars, attackers often considered MORE collateral damage to be desirable.
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MartynC
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Auckland
Jan 2004
time: 17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Uh, massive bombardment rarely, if ever, fails in the game, though individual sorties quite often do. That's why, just like in the real world, you send wave after wave of bombers. It's a numbers game, in both cases. |
My point is that it you sent 1 B-52 or 10 over a city & dropped their payload(s), ALOT is going to be destroyed. I understand some may get shot down, but it they don't have air defences (e.g. new town, only ground units created so far), then I expect the village/town/city to be almost destroyed & every attacked succeed, due to the type of attack. Could you imagine saying a nuclear missile failed to destroy a city like the bombing does? 
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Petrus2
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MartynC, many buildings, etc may be destroyed by a bomber, or 10. But from the point of view of an entire city, that may, in fact, be insignificant. Depending on the type of bombing mission, usually a specific target(s) is selected (this is what the US 8th AF would do in Europe...each aircraft would have a specific factory building as a target). So a given building may be hit multiple times, since it takes a fair amount of damage to DESTROY a factory. But that doesn't mean the city itself is crippled. And often, due to flak, fighters, wind, error, duds, etc, the factory would be operable anyway.
True, more modern bombers are more accurate, but there haven't been any 1000 bomber missions since WW2 !
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Solomwi
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Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MartynC
My point is that it you sent 1 B-52 or 10 over a city & dropped their payload(s), ALOT is going to be destroyed. |
Yes, assuming they actually hit the city, which isn't a given.
quote:
I understand some may get shot down, but it they don't have air defences (e.g. new town, only ground units created so far), then I expect the village/town/city to be almost destroyed & every attacked succeed, due to the type of attack. Could you imagine saying a nuclear missile failed to destroy a city like the bombing does? |
Nobody's talking about nukes or shootdowns accounting for in-game failure. The simple fact is that even with smart bombs, every attack doesn't succeed. That goes doubly for WWII-era bombers and even B-52s. Your expectations are unrealistic, whether it be in the real world or in the game. Bombers miss sometimes. As Petrus2 said, sometimes they miss, but still hit something unimportant, like a neighborhood (pop reduction). Sometimes they miss altogether and nobody's killed, nor is anything important destroyed.
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Shogun Gunner
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Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Petrus2
MartynC, many buildings, etc may be destroyed by a bomber, or 10. But from the point of view of an entire city, that may, in fact, be insignificant. Depending on the type of bombing mission, usually a specific target(s) is selected (this is what the US 8th AF would do in Europe...each aircraft would have a specific factory building as a target). So a given building may be hit multiple times, since it takes a fair amount of damage to DESTROY a factory. But that doesn't mean the city itself is crippled. And often, due to flak, fighters, wind, error, duds, etc, the factory would be operable anyway.
True, more modern bombers are more accurate, but there haven't been any 1000 bomber missions since WW2 ! |
And a "factory" in Civ3 isn't just one building! At least in my mind, it represents a city adopting industrialization. Think Pittsburg versus Missoula, MT.
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Petrus2
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Really if you look at the historical effect of bombers, I'd say Civ 3 OVER rates their effectiveness. I don't have a problem with this, because it is a game, so who cares? But look at the massive strategic bombing offensive in Europe in WW2, and calculate how much effort went in and what effect was truly felt. (the same comment holds for artillery, it's over powered IMHO).
But hey, I enjoy using the tools the game designers provided, so it's all good.
Shogun Gunner, I agree with your point, it puts an important view onto what you are really destroying. BTW, looks like you live fairly close to me! (I'm in the Fredericksburg vicinity).
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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Petrus2
Really if you look at the historical effect of bombers, I'd say Civ 3 OVER rates their effectiveness. I don't have a problem with this, because it is a game, so who cares? But look at the massive strategic bombing offensive in Europe in WW2, and calculate how much effort went in and what effect was truly felt. (the same comment holds for artillery, it's over powered IMHO).
But hey, I enjoy using the tools the game designers provided, so it's all good.
Shogun Gunner, I agree with your point, it puts an important view onto what you are really destroying. BTW, looks like you live fairly close to me! (I'm in the Fredericksburg vicinity). |
interesting post. when Civ3 came out, people complained very heavily about how underpowered they were. they of course, were comparing them to civ2 bombers- which were very powerful.
I do not think civ3 bombers are overpowered. I think they are just about right in C3C (with the ability to sink ships).
And remember, even though ww2 bombers were innaccurate, that is not the case today. Air power is the reason why Gulf war and Iraq war were cakewalks. And afghanistan, Serbia thing in 98, etc.
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Petrus2
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
interesting post. when Civ3 came out, people complained very heavily about how underpowered they were. they of course, were comparing them to civ2 bombers- which were very powerful.
I do not think civ3 bombers are overpowered. I think they are just about right in C3C (with the ability to sink ships).
And remember, even though ww2 bombers were innaccurate, that is not the case today. Air power is the reason why Gulf war and Iraq war were cakewalks. And afghanistan, Serbia thing in 98, etc. |
I'm not saying Civ 3 bombers are too powerful, I'm saying they are more effective than their real-life counterparts. But since this is a game and not RL, it's ok.
As for the use of air power in wars over the last 10-15 years, these have been applications of tactical air power and not strategic bombing campaigns against a country's infrastructure. Sure, some infrastructure was targeted, but the concerted effort was against military units not factories. Also, they were in a situation where air supremacy was enjoyed, which certainly enhances what aircraft can do. (Not to mention, the 'cakewalks' were due in large part to the skill, professionalism and equipment of our ground forces, not just airpower)
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27-07-2004 07:10
. It was a bad ass looking screen shot. Almost every single tile in the Aztec territory was bombarded. Very cool 
) have active movement points.
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