27-07-2004 09:16									#1
	The New Hall of Fame: Tournament Time? Remove this text

I'm wondering if anyone is planning on submitting games or starting a tournament? The new HoF looks pretty cool. I'm also wondering if the original entries will be re-uploaded to the database? I'm guessing not, so it's a clean slate. Who'll be #1?

An MP or regular tournament would be fun.

I doubt I'll be submitting regular Smac(x) games because I'm playing a modified Smax, but the HoF is tempting me....

	27-07-2004 14:33									#2
	Re: The New Hall of Fame: Tournament Time? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by smacksim I'm also wondering if the original entries will be re-uploaded to the database?

we cant import the existing entries but feel free to submit them again
the old pages are here
http://apolyton.net/smac/Files/hof_levels.shtml
http://apolyton.net/smac/Files/hof_conditions.shtml

there is also the issue of the special challenges
http://apolyton.net/smac/Files/hof_challenges.shtml

if someone could find the old threads in the archive (if we still have them) we could recreate them

if you start a tournament, pm me to accept it and post some news on it

	28-07-2004 20:08									#3
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I'd play in an MP tournament. A future HoF'er pasting me would be a great learning experience and fodder for war stories.

	28-07-2004 22:06									#4
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Tournaments = good

	28-07-2004 22:13									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yep I'd play too. Hopefully we could drag some true vets back though.. I'd love to play against Mis, Tau, buster, big_canuk et. al.

	30-07-2004 18:13									#6
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Yeah I am game for tournament play.

But I have looked at some of the later tournaments and quite a number just faded away. Some of the games took 2 years or more to conclude. Like most MP games replacements were needed from time to time and if they took the weakest faction, there was the question of should they be penalised for helping out.

So I would like a format that put a time limit in place.

This could be either (a) set future real date: which would concentrate the mind.
or (b) a MY date such as MY 2230. Winner could be the one with the highest AC score at the close.

I think some form of accelerated start would make the early years of the game go faster and also make it more fun. There might be discussion on what would be balanced faction accelerated starts.

Faction rotation: You can't always choose Uni / Morgan / Hive / Drones

For example if three people signed up for a 3 game 3 way tourny, the human factions chosen would be rotated.

Just thoughts.

	30-07-2004 20:16									#7
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An accelerated start of some form is crucial if you want to speed up games. Early in games, I can play the turns as fast as I get them, but later on I sometimes can't play the turn even when I see it in my inbox, for lack of time (FCT).

Maybe a fair acceleration strategy would be:

Several techs, dependent on research rating and efficiency

A free SE switch or two, which would influence other acceleration

Several CPs or bases, dependent on growth and maybe industry

Larger bases, dependent on growth and police/talent/drone/nodrone

Some formers, since good players seem to go for Ecology very early, invariably. The number would be dependent on industry and support.

Basic facilities, such as rec tanks, rec commons, or children's creches, dependent on industry and economy.

Basic terraforming, such as roads, forests, and maybe a few farms or solar panels.

Basic scouting units, dependent on industry, support, morale, and planet. Santi would get a few good units, Miriam and Domai would get several poor units, Deirdre would get some native life but be deficient on normal units, Cha Dawn would get more native life.

More ECs, dependent on economy and efficiency

Possible infiltration of or by other factions, dependent on probe

	30-07-2004 23:41									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory An accelerated start of some form is crucial if you want to speed up games. Early in games, I can play the turns as fast as I get them, but later on I sometimes can't play the turn even when I see it in my inbox, for lack of time (FCT).

I'm in exactly the same boat-- The first 20 to 30 years are easy since I can hop on the computer for a sec but then you have to schedule out the time since turns take an hour at times and if you have 3-4 games on the go . .. . all I know to do is take each in turn

	30-07-2004 23:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Maybe a fair acceleration strategy would be: Several techs, dependent on research rating and efficiency A free SE switch or two, which would influence other acceleration

The tech start is very very tough to balance-- Giving the poorer researcher a leg up can negate much of the economic/researcher faction advantage-- I'm not saying it can't be done but it is a tough thing to do.

I also don't know how you do the free SE switch thing

	31-07-2004 00:23									#10
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I'd be against acceleration by anything other than a few extra CP's or formers (Providing the Gaians or Cult aren't in the game). It's very very tough to balance as Flubber says, and it also might not be an actual advantage - particullarly more techs. If the believers start a game with 3 techs say, that'll cripple their research for a long time.

A fairer system could be the bidding system Googlie used in the Forced Faction 3x2 game. Every player would then get to bid for certain items. As we're wanting an accelerated game though, there should be more points to bid with, say 1000 each player instead of 750/player.

Alternativly, we could see if anyone is willing to do a bing accellerated game... sounds like an awfully large amount of work for the CMN though...

Or simply the same as the CGN tourney, 4 CP's, 3 scouts and 3 formers IIRC.

	31-07-2004 00:38									#11
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An auction/bid acceleration strategy is certainly worthwhile, and more elaborate things can be auctioned, like free techs (prereqs must be met, of course) and terraforming.

By free SE changes, I meant that the CMN could change such a faction's SE settings in accordance with the wishes of the player, provided that the faction has the required tech to run the desired SE. In this way, Yang could be running Police/Planned at the start of the game, with 2 free SE changes. Morgan could be running FM/Wealth. The new SE category ratings would influence other acceleration.

Getting extra techs is an advantage if you have enough population to support the increased research rate, and particularly if you pick the techs.


For what it's worth, TCP/IP games automatically accelerate in this way:
Everyone gets 2 or 3 CPs, a former, a scout, and a rover (Santi probably gets 2 rovers)

Everyone gets 100 ECs, and Morgan gets 250..

The first base founded by each base (HQ) starts with rec tanks, rec commons, and 3 population (2 for Morgan, 4 for Deirdre). Morgan also gets an Energy Bank. I'm not sure if any other factions get facilities in the HQ.

You start with an extra tech or two, or maybe three with a high research rating.

Last edited by Chaos Theory on 31-07-2004 at 00:44

	31-07-2004 06:29									#12
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Chaos:

quote: For what it's worth, TCP/IP games automatically accelerate in this way: Everyone gets 2 or 3 CPs, a former, a scout, and a rover (Santi probably gets 2 rovers) Everyone gets 100 ECs, and Morgan gets 250.. The first base founded by each base (HQ) starts with rec tanks, rec commons, and 3 population (2 for Morgan, 4 for Deirdre). Morgan also gets an Energy Bank. I'm not sure if any other factions get facilities in the HQ. You start with an extra tech or two, or maybe three with a high research rating.

Very interesting. Didn't know this, but it is more or less what I had in mind.

	31-07-2004 14:22									#13
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Yeah, a lot of the games Tau Ceti set up for tournament did fade away. I wish we could play a whole game in a week. We could do a real tournament with brackets, home and away legs, and elimination rounds. That could be done with Single Player challenges though. Make 6 or so SP games that get progressively more challenging. Top 8 scores from rounds 1+2 goto round 3, top 4 ---> round 4, etc..

As to accellerated start, we could have a CMN build up the factions, ie terraforming, base placement, etc., but this could be an unwelcome surprise.

Alternatively, each player could submit their ideal base setup for X years and the CMN could try to emulate that in setting up the bases and roads, etc.

Or third, each player could play the first 30 years of an SP game set on the exact same map and starting position, then submit that for copying to the MP map.

A fourth option would be to have teams of 2-3 players on each team, to speed up play. Playing 2 such games at once would identify the best player via combined score.

	31-07-2004 15:12									#14
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SP games are all well and good, but I for one play much MUCH worse in SP than in MP. Theres something in the competitive edge I guess. For that reason, I'd rather not see an SP based tournament.

We could do something as simple as making the new tourney a head to head tournament, perhaps with small acceleration through extra units. I've finished entire H2H's past 2200 in 7or8 days before.

CMN doing base placement terraforming etc is something I'm not comfortable with. I want to place everything exactly where I want it, which may not be what the CMN wants.

The third option sounds good though. The problem with that set up is contact, as when the games are then merged together, people may have made contact prior to the final PBEM setup. 30 years may therefore be too long. Also, it's very hard to get everything accurate. Who gets the benefit from SotB for example? What about tech costs, which will change undoubtably. Also, it's extremely hard to get exactly the right amount of tech accumulated for each player.

Team games tend to move slower in my experience past a certain point. Theres too much cooperation needed to make them quicker.

	01-08-2004 18:45									#15
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I agree someone shouldn't have a monopoly on a particular faction, but I wouldn't want a strict rotation. You could randomly assign the order of who gets to pick first, second, etc. Then for another game, use a different order.

Acceleration is good. We could use the IP example and CGN methods (regular and vets) to come up with something. It's hard to get it balanced if different factions get different starts, IMO. I'd prefer something simple and universal-- CP's, credits, scouts.

I'd want complete control over base locations and terraforming.

Starting as several single player games is interesting. With boosted starts, though, Secret Projects could be built before thirty years.