28-07-2004 05:18									#1
	Might and Magic VII help - 0 quest? Suffering from ads?

Has anyone ever gotten a '0' (zero) quest before? i think it got it because I managed to complete both the stealing of Fort Riverstride plans and rescuing of Loren Steele but not sure. I don't suppose it is a completable quest, is it?

As a side note, I accedentally cleared out the Tularean Cave before obtaining the Rescuing quest (amazing what you can kill with fire aura and 4 elven longbows ), creating another strange situation of Queen Catherine proposing the quest, then not speaking to me until after 30 days had past - then thanking me for rescuing Mr. Steele - i tried 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 days by bouncing back and forth between Deyja and Etheria - even after 50 days without ever visiting the cave again, I completed that quest.

I'm just kinda worried that by aiding both sides in the human-elf war will create further problems later in the game. It does appear that the game continues as I received a quest to retrieve a trumpet after wandering aimlessly for another 15 days or so.

SCG

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	28-07-2004 18:45									#2
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I've had the 0 quest bug, but I think it is just a visual error that you are stuck with. Its been a long time since i searched the forums for that one.

	28-07-2004 19:51									#3
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It does not mean anything. Just ignore it. I forget the trigger for it. I just treat it as a period at the end of the list.

Are you going light or dark?

	29-07-2004 04:35									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 It does not mean anything. Just ignore it. I forget the trigger for it. I just treat it as a period at the end of the list. Are you going light or dark?

ok - 0 treated as a period

as for light or dark - actually planning on doing both, so been working on completing the neutral quests - can create some interesting comments by the NPC's

suggestions on which to do first?

	29-07-2004 11:01									#5
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You can't do both. When the time comes (let me know if you want to know when that is) you will have to pick one or the other and will be stuck with it.

What he is saying is you must choose the path of dark to be able to become a black knight. Some promotions have a counter part for light and dark and one will be foreclosed to you. You can to the the same thing as they would, but will not have the quest nor get the promotion. There is only one that you cannot get into the dungeon without the quest.

I will be happy to answer any question, but will try to not give you information that is explicted or tip off things, with out your requesting it.

	29-07-2004 17:44									#6
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I still hope to do both I've been saving the game periodically and backing up the set of saves as well from time to time - so if i really had to i could have gone back to a save 10-15 levels ago to not prematurely clear out the cave... So what i should be able to do is save before i actually make the choice whenever it finally arrives and set that in a separate folder. Then either play out one side in its entirety then go back to the save and play out the other side without having to complete all the prelims again.

Of course with all the zone resetting that goes on i wasn't sure quite what to expect - I think i've killed the goblins outside Harmondale about 4x

	29-07-2004 20:23									#7
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Yes if you save before making the choice, you can go back to play the other side.

If the goblins have respawned, you have delayed too long. Go to the seer and ask for a hint.

	30-07-2004 06:38									#8
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If the goblins have respawned, you have delayed too long. Go to the seer and ask for a hint.

um, yeah, about that respawning stuff - i neglected one piece of information trying to find the lost dwarves - i cleaned out all the barrows, the mansion and even the nighon tunnels before i realized that the red dwarf mines weren't in the barrow downs took a trip to avlee to realize that I must have spent forever taking on gogs, goglings and Magogs (felt like captain Hunt ) did build up a tidy bit of experience and a minor fortune of a bank account. made me kinda wonder why i needed to find the dwarves to finance the castle when i had a quarter million gold pieces in the bank )

anyway - finally nearing the point of choice - should i try it first with the offensive dark or the defensive light?

	30-07-2004 06:57									#9
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I figured you may not have made it to the Mines straight away. Rescue of the dwarves is the trigger to two things. One of them is the first clean up of your castle. You do not pay for that, it is a reward.

The other is the count down to the death of Judge Grey (iirc his name). Anyway I nearly always play the light. This is because I hate the trial to pass the test for the Dark. I like the dark side, but I hate the test. The light test is so easy, I take it 9 out of 10 games.

Not to mention that having the DoG spell is so useful. As long as you save before you actually drop the new judge off you can go with either path.

You do not need to worry about how many quest you have done before either side. The only one that comes to mid that is dependant on having a quest before you do the dungeon is the X-mas STOLE. All the path dependant ones are not available until after the test is passed.

	30-07-2004 09:23									#10
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The other is the count down to the death of Judge Grey (iirc his name). Anyway I nearly always play the light. This is because I hate the trial to pass the test for the Dark. I like the dark side, but I hate the test. The light test is so easy, I take it 9 out of 10 games. Not to mention that having the DoG spell is so useful. As long as you save before you actually drop the new judge off you can go with either path.

I may try and pass the dark side test first since i tend to play a bit defensively - might be more of a challenge (high level cleric constantly keeping everyone alive with a paladin to assist in tight spots) - that and since i've had so much gold to burn, I've bought a whole lot of pure stat potions and kinda have a permanent DoG situation

On a side note - any idea why the game reccomends a goblin for the fighter type? my human rogue has 1/2 the endurance of my goblin paladin (69 vs 110), yet has nearly 50 more HP

	30-07-2004 20:03									#11
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Goblins have attributes that they have a different cost to advance on. Humans treat all traits the same, so they are good all around.

This means a Goblin gets to add 2 points in some traits for each one you add to that trait. Other traits require 2 points added to move up 1. So since they get 2 for 1 on might, they are great knights.

Since they get 1 for 2 one intel and personality, they make crapping clerics or wizards.

Hit points are a function of several things. Body building increases them as well as your promontial level and class.

Paladins start at 30, while a knight starts at 40. The Pally gets 4 HP for each base level it adds, while a knight gets 5. For 1st promotion level it is 7 for a knight and 4 for a pally, 9 vs 6 for second promotion levels.

Then they recalc the HP for endurance. Anyway a Rogue has been promoted and a Knight has not, so they get their HP recalc at the new 1st level rate. If all attributes are the same and the levels are the same a knight will have more than other base level characters.

Give one of the party a bunch of items that boost its endurance and or extra barrels for endurance and they will pull ahead.

The main issue to me on Dark vs Light is I have to build my party up to a higher level before I do dark. Since you have done a lot more adventuring than most by the time you get to the trial, it will probably not matter.

	31-07-2004 05:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Goblins have attributes that they have a different cost to advance on. Humans treat all traits the same, so they are good all around. This means a Goblin gets to add 2 points in some traits for each one you add to that trait. Other traits require 2 points added to move up 1. So since they get 2 for 1 on might, they are great knights.

Paladin (Crusader) - level 47 goblin
bodybuilding - basic(4)
endurance (permanent) - 70
endurance (with eq) - 110
HP 330 (350 with eq)

Thief (Rogue) - level 47 human
bodybuilding - basic (4)
endurance (permanent) - 33
endurance (with eq) - 69
HP 379 (402 with eq)

quote: Give one of the party a bunch of items that boost its endurance and or extra barrels for endurance and they will pull ahead.

after training the crusader at the bodybuilding expert and raising the skill by 1:

Paladin (Crusader) - level 47 goblin
bodybuilding - expert (5)
endurance (with eq) - 110
HP 380 (with eq)

Thief (Rogue) - level 47 human
bodybuilding - basic (4)
endurance (permanent) - 33
HP 379 (no eq)

personally, I'd consider the goblin Crusader boosted, and yet only has 1 single HP higher than an equal level human rogue with 1/4th the endurance, and inferior bodybuiding skills. I'm leaning towards a human fighter if i start another party

	31-07-2004 07:59									#13
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This is a class issue. A Thief goes 5/6/8 (bae/1st/2nd), a Pally goes 4/5/6. I would say a Goblin is medicore or poor Pally as it get 1/2 value for Personality. That is an important attribute for any healing class. So you are getting the boost for might from a Goblin, but lossing on the Person/Int aspect.

Actually I see knwo good reason to use a Pally, except for the fun of it. They are inferior fighters to Knights and inferior healers to Clerics.

	31-07-2004 08:24									#14
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Not sure if I have this correct, but here is my best shot:

Rogue

47 Level * 6 (Rogue) = 282
6 * 4 (BB at level normal times base = 24
Endurance 33
Total 339

Not sure where the mising 40 comes in. Any spells or items to add? I will try to test this tomorrow.
Pally

47 * 5 = 235
5 * (2*5) = 50
End 110

Total 395

I am not sure if by base they mean the class base to start or the new base for the promoted class. I used the promoted base.

	31-07-2004 09:08									#15
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the main reason i use a paladin is because i want a second healer in the party. The paladin is used primarily as my fighter with It allows me to do things like have the cleric cast cure insanity and the paladin cast cure weakness in the same round. or lets the paladin occasionally supplement the cleric in other healings. and with only 4 party spaces as compared to 6 like a lot of the AD&D games use, it's not really a good use of a PC slot to have 2 clerics. And of course the paladin is supposed to be one of the fighters so he can primarily fight but heal on the side if we need to make a run for it. thought about using a cleric and a druid, but find the sorcerer much more effective since it appears there is a limited # of times you can use a pure stat potion (making the grandmastery in alchemy kinda pointless) of course if the rogue has more HP with expert bodybuilding than a paladin does with mastery of bodybuilding, maybe a rogue as the tank, cleric, druid and sorcerer may fit my needs.

hmm, was re-reading the manual - the game actually makes the thief and monk as better fighters than the AD&D fighter classes (ranger, paladin)... i'm thinking d8 HP for ranger/paladin and d6 HP for thieves... of course my sorcerer has more HP than my cleric sunk a lot of endurance into that char too - for now think the paladin is the best tradeoff for a 2nd healer and still getting a fighter type in the game

	31-07-2004 11:10									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Followup on the Dark Side - Do i have to wait for the nighon Tunnels to repop before i can complete the Lich quest? I retrieved (well found, and decided to hang onto in case i needed it) the seemingly required quest item before choosing a side and now wondering why he keeps insisting that i don't have it... with the wizard quest i had the problem of leaving a golem part in a chest when the zone the chest was in repopped and had to wait for another zone to repop to get the darn part back before completing that one... (makes for a lot of adventuring and excess exp too)

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	31-07-2004 20:43									#17
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Rogue

47 Level * 6 (Rogue) = 282
6 * 4 (BB at level normal times base = 24
Endurance of 33 yields 6 or 7 (use 6)
Start HP = 35
Total 345

Since I do not know how tis character ws created, it could start with more than normal points. Have items or DoG to boost Endurance.

Pally

47 * 5 = 235
5 * (2*5) = 50
End of 110 = 11 or 12 (use 11)
Start 30

Total 326

I am not sure if by base they mean the class base to start or the new base for the promoted class. I used the promoted base.

	31-07-2004 20:54									#18
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The Wizard quest from Thomas Grey (?) in the school has a bogus head. The one called the "normal head of the abby" or something like that is damaged and it says so.

You have to get the correct head in vicinity of Stone City.

The Lich jars has a bug. I forget the details, but the set in the tunnles is extra and can be used for the Light quest, the set in the halls of the mist in Celeste is mean for the Dark side.

I can't remember if you can get around it now or not. I would say do the quest for the Mist and if you do not find the jars use an editor to provide them.

I have never ran into this issue, but I have read of many others that have back on the old 3DO board. This may be one of those quest where it is best not to do the dungeon before having the quest.

	01-08-2004 04:34									#19
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well, i can't seem to find the jars anywhere - and this is my first trip into celeste. I found 3 keys, but no jars. found a secret room with absolutely nothing in it in one of the sub-dungeons. found an empty chest in the room unlocked by the keys... can't find anything living in the zone either (used town portal to test - can't successfully cast with hostile creatures around, even if peasants on different levels - and tried in each sub-dungeon too) so don't think they are being carried by an archmage or something (and man are those irritating - spend several minutes powering up and its all gone within seconds...)

where can i find this editor?

	01-08-2004 05:46									#20
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Yup the bug is the cause of the missing lich jars in the Hall of Myst.

If you now have the quest and have discarded the jars from the mountain, you will need to use an editor to add them to the inventory. I think MM7che should work.

	01-08-2004 05:51									#21
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You have to be a GM to cast TP with hostiles around. Otherwise you have to move to a point were teh indicators turn green.

The mages can summon so they have a neer ending supply of monsters. I am not sure about Dark, but I know Light cannot make epxerience from those monsters.

	01-08-2004 05:53									#22
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Try this:

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	01-08-2004 09:29									#23
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ok so its not the case of soul (lich) jars it needs but 4 individual lich jars - of which do seem to be missing from the halls of mist... unless i missed a room somewhere and it doesn't show on wizard eye or the map if not located... debating how to procede from here. When clearing out castle lambert, at least i know i can see treasure and a portion of the map i can't figure out how to get to even after draining the water.

and for a completely off the wall remark - didn't expect the picture and voice to change

	01-08-2004 21:02									#24
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ok, that's messed up Went to visit Archibald Ironfist, head of all thats dark and evil, doing his bidding like killing things in Celeste so my Priest of the Dark can become Grandmaster in Dark Magic, and for my many crimes, Archibald sentences me to a year in prison??? Then he lets me pay 8000 to become grandmaster

Probably going to happen again when i figure out how i want to handle my Wizard (currently not a Lich)...

	01-08-2004 21:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SCG ok so its not the case of soul (lich) jars it needs but 4 individual lich jars - of which do seem to be missing from the halls of mist... unless i missed a room somewhere and it doesn't show on wizard eye or the map if not located... debating how to procede from here. When clearing out castle lambert, at least i know i can see treasure and a portion of the map i can't figure out how to get to even after draining the water. and for a completely off the wall remark - didn't expect the picture and voice to change

MM8 has individual jars, MM7 has the case of jars. There is no way to get the jars from the Hall, due to a bug. So IIRC you could have either gotten the quest for the jars and then gone to the Tunnel and gotten those or maybe gotten the ones in the Castle in the Pit.

Failing either of those you will have to use the editor. I do not remember, but I am fairly sure I got them from the tunnel after I had the quest.

As light I have gotten then from the tunnel and the Castle.

	01-08-2004 21:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by SCG ok so its not the case of soul (lich) jars it needs but 4 individual lich jars - of which do seem to be missing from the halls of mist... unless i missed a room somewhere and it doesn't show on wizard eye or the map if not located... debating how to procede from here. When clearing out castle lambert, at least i know i can see treasure and a portion of the map i can't figure out how to get to even after draining the water. and for a completely off the wall remark - didn't expect the picture and voice to change

In any town that has a council hall you must note any fines due. Pay those before you visit any Lords or you can be locked up.

There is a council in the Pit, if you have done bad things, pay the fine. Yeah I know it is strange that the dark side still cannot kill citizens, but thems the breaks.

The pump room should drain the pools to where you can see the doprs. I cannot remember them, but if you have someone with master perception, they should be red.

A few quest require either that you know the ins and outs or have a master in perception to see the secret doors. The Priest map for Ever is one such. I can do it without, but it is a pain.

	01-08-2004 21:17									#27
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Did you get into the treasure room? You need to trip a lever to raise the bridge.

	01-08-2004 21:23									#28
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quote: Originally posted by SCG and for a completely off the wall remark - didn't expect the picture and voice to change

Yes if you complete the test you get light borders or dark. Or do you me the Lich changing? Well I am not sure if that is MM7 or only MM8 that the necro becomes a lich with a different picture.

I get them confused at times. Well at least I know you can't have a dragon in your party in VII, only VIII.

	01-08-2004 23:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 he pump room should drain the pools to where you can see the doprs. I cannot remember them, but if you have someone with master perception, they should be red. A few quest require either that you know the ins and outs or have a master in perception to see the secret doors. The Priest map for Ever is one such. I can do it without, but it is a pain.

Got a Rogue with master perception, and i've been seeing a lot of red, but not seen anything so far that would activate a bridge like in the dark prooving grounds. draining the pools just seems to create a couple of stairways that lead to treasure areas. and it doesn't even drain all the pools - i'll look again after i get a couple more skills to grandmaster for the 2 chars able to do that (or 3 if i go ahead and do the lich)

	01-08-2004 23:52									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Yes if you complete the test you get light borders or dark. Or do you me the Lich changing? Well I am not sure if that is MM7 or only MM8 that the necro becomes a lich with a different picture. I get them confused at times. Well at least I know you can't have a dragon in your party in VII, only VIII.

was refering to the skull with pony tails they call a lich i don't have VIII atm, just VI, VII, and IX, only really played VII so far (a little of VI). but when i edited in the case of soul jars, or even edited in 2 cases of soul jars it still said i didn't have what he was looking for. when i edited in 4 empty jars it still said i didn't have what i needed until i put 1 in the inventory of each char. Since i hadn't yet found any individual jars, figured there was a chance i had yet to find the jars and they actually existed (possibly the 2nd lever that reveals the hole in the floor with the chest and the key) didn't pay close enough attention to see if moving the lever on one side moved the one on the other or not. but i did try about 24 combinations of the 6 buttons and only got the floor to open and close 1 way.

anyway still keeping my options open on the lich - i can usually clear an area without having to leave the area (including castle lambert other than finding the bridge) so don't need the grand master in water yet (town portal), i have a priest of the dark with grandmaster in dark, so don't need another just yet, and i'm not sure if i want my bows to become permanent with fire aura just yet so like just having master in fire so not in a terrible rush to get the Lich now. though does sound like i may have to do some character editing...