29-07-2004 02:04									#1
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Deja vu???

	29-07-2004 03:11									#2
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I think we need to at least partially resolve things with GWT first.

	29-07-2004 06:09									#3
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I agree with Kloreep. This issue needs to be resolved. If you need to schedule an out-of-character/game chat with the GWT folks to discuss this issue, then do it.

Whether or not this game is even going to be PLAYED AT ALL seems to be hinging on this. It needs to be resolved to the satisfaction (as much as possible) of the various parties or the game just isn't worth playing anymore.

	29-07-2004 17:37									#4
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This is testing even me a bit now...

What do we think we will get out of such a chat?
I assume what some want is to ask how GWT saw us. They can either point out a Galley or somesuch that could legitimately have done it, refuse to answer, or lie about it. And then what? Do we expect them to say "sorry, we admit we cheated", or "we admit it's unfair, let's replay and let you invade this time"?!?!?!

We will have to play on regardless, or drop the game. I can't help but think of all the times when we bemoaned the fact that other teams were holding the game for some reason or other. Now we are becoming no different. Particularly with the Admin missing, if you think about what will actually happen with GWT, we have to play on or wait for potentially weeks/months for even the HOPE of a ruling.

We were found out- bugger. Will this delaying attitude be what kills the game? Let's just concentrate on what we are going to do with our fleet, and I have seen a number of ideas, with one or two clearly the better. Trying to talk to GWT is utterly pointless. It will not do anything for us.

Let's get over it and get on with it.

If I were able to spend some time here during the day.....

	29-07-2004 19:45									#5
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Play the save

	29-07-2004 21:07									#6
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Hold the turn....

At least till we find out what the heck Bongo meant. Looks like we might have multiple issues to deal with. One being that GWT may have used the "last player in a PBEM can get two turns of movement in one turn" bug.

	30-07-2004 00:32									#7
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WIA: I'm sorry, but I just don't see any way for us to proceed till we've accounted ourselves to GWT.

If we passed on the save and then later said "Oh yeah, BTW, one of our members broke the rule on replaying saves; but, unbiased as we are, we decided by ourselves without consulting any outside party we were fit to judge whether this was damaging, and that we could send on the save."

I personally think it shouldn't be a problem. But I'd rather we don't make that decision ourselves unless GWT explicitly says they trust us to do so.

	30-07-2004 00:49									#8
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I've been wanting to play the save since the weekend. Hell, I was ABOUT to play the save (and did the preliminary scouting by AIS Zealous) when E_T went and, well, you know the rest.

I also think we need to get this issue resolved ASAP before we charge in. In the meantime, I think there are many military options which still need some debating (i.e. where to move our caravel stack).

	30-07-2004 02:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep WIA: I'm sorry, but I just don't see any way for us to proceed till we've accounted ourselves to GWT.

I thought, with the post, this had been done already. Ultimately we are all at the mercy of every team sticking to the rules, especially now with no Admin. If they distrust us the game just stops. That's it. We can hold the game ourselves, incurring yet more invective from the likes of Lucky, or we can send it on. Should GWT want things stopped and investigated or replayed, then leave it to them to get that rolling. We have enough to worry about as it is.

My point is we have no problem with what we have done. If GWT does, let them say it before we assume we need to carefully account for everything.

	30-07-2004 07:27									#10
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The thing is, if GWT truly didn't have units capable of seeing us, how would they "know" that it was a Horseman blocking us? They seem to know exactly where we are capable of landing. That means they MUST know where SOMETHING is SOMEHOW...

	30-07-2004 08:18									#11
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I must be insane, but WTH...

I would volunteer to leave the team and become AN admin IF someone from GWT withdrew and became co-admin.

I am pretty busy, all things considered, and I would have very little patience with BS. However, to see the game have a chance to continue I would do this.

One alternative that I can think of to someone active from GWT withdrawing would be to get Sir Ralph to do it with me. He is a member of GWT. He speaks their language. I think I could work with him. The question would be if he were willing, but it seems worth the asking.

The offer is there, whether it is a good one or not is for you all to judge.

	30-07-2004 08:26									#12
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I doubt SR would be willing. He's said elsewhere that he's pretty busy, and when asked about the ISDG long ago he said he had nothing to do with it any more.

But the idea can still be thrown out for them.

	30-07-2004 08:27									#13
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I think it's a good idea. Can NYE contact SR and see what he thinks?

--Togas

	30-07-2004 08:31									#14
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Well, the idea would be to propose it to GWT first. If they like the idea, then I could approach SR. If he is unwilling, then someone else from GWT would have to be found. I really can't see them accepting a former consul of Apolyton as admin by himself, and I doubt I should be so silly as to put myself in that position even if they would.

	30-07-2004 09:02									#15
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nye - great idea! For future games such as this - a proper team of admins could really help the game. Say 3 or 4 neutral folks - knowldgeable in civ3 and all its mechanics and flaws - that would be the ticket.

If you and SR can swing it for the remainder of this game - hats off to you.

	30-07-2004 09:15									#16
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I like the idea of a NYE-SR team.

	30-07-2004 09:39									#17
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That's certainly a duo i wouldn't cross.

	30-07-2004 14:57									#18
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Well, as much as it's definitely a great idea that could help the game a lot in the future, I would at the same time feel quite sad losing our tiger...

BTW... IIRC, FortyJ used to be the President of Fanatikou (CFC) in this game, too.

One more idea here... perhaps if Sir Ralph does not accept (I understand that the whole idea is attractive because of nye and SR get along well), but someone else from GWT steps up - could we try asking Aeson to look at the save on our behalf? He is a highly respected civver with a presence both here and at CFC. He used to be our member, but left long time ago because of opening the ISDG save in the SP mode by mistake.

The advantage of this solution would be that we would not lose another member... and I believe we all would trust Aeson with whatever he'd find out.

	30-07-2004 18:57									#19
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Radek, this sounds like a good idea!

	30-07-2004 22:37									#20
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I should have thought of Aeson. That is a very good idea.

	30-07-2004 23:01									#21
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Cool. Who's going to ask him? I'm anxious to get this game moving again.

	30-07-2004 23:19									#22
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I believe we first need to get GWT to agree to the idea. con? Togas? Has anyone approched them? Or was this idea floated in the UN forum (I admit I do not check it)?

	30-07-2004 23:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I should have thought of Aeson. That is a very good idea.

	01-08-2004 07:03									#24
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What are we waiting on now? We have two people willing to look at the game for us. Let's get them the saves they need to look at; and have GWT send them their's as well. Let's get the ball rolling.

	01-08-2004 09:44									#25
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Hasn't the turn been played yet?

	01-08-2004 10:50									#26
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Nope.

	01-08-2004 22:13									#27
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You can ask, but I highly doubt Aeson is interested. He told us a while ago he was no longer interested in MP, especially not in demogames. The reason: The constant bickering and annoying posting styles of certain members. He left GS because of that. Now you're going to ask him to solve just that, and hear all the whining of not 1, but 4 teams? Good luck!

DeepO

	01-08-2004 22:53									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO The constant bickering and annoying posting styles of certain members. He left GS because of that.

And that was just within GS, who knows what he thought of the main forum!

	02-08-2004 00:22									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I believe we first need to get GWT to agree to the idea. con? Togas? Has anyone approched them? Or was this idea floated in the UN forum (I admit I do not check it)?

Not that I know of, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree asking Sir Ralph. His involvement with Civ has been minimal for months.

	02-08-2004 00:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Not that I know of, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree asking Sir Ralph. His involvement with Civ has been minimal for months.

that's probably an accurate assessment. We tried to get him back to GS, but other than a few postings, he hasn't been around. Further, he didn't take kindly, much in the same vein as Aeson, to the squabbles, I don't think he would like dealing with this BS.