29-07-2004 02:28									#1
	Tax the rich!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I was reading an article from seattle weekly a few weeks or possibly months ago ( i was in my career development class) and it said that during the eisenhower admin, the rich, the top 1% of earners were taxed nearly 90%, 70% under Kennedy, and it has decreased over time. Under Reagan it was 28%.

Now pardon me if im wrong but was it such a big problem to tax the rich this much in that time? what makes now so different from then other than, the rich run the politics of this country?

	29-07-2004 02:32									#2
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I'd like to see proof that those figures are correct. They sure don't sound right to me...

	29-07-2004 02:33									#3
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Those sound like marginal tax rates.

	29-07-2004 02:33									#4
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The development of economic policy, industries, and world economics/politics made lower taxes for the rich needed to encourage growth.

	29-07-2004 02:34									#5
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Bullshit.

	29-07-2004 02:34									#6
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I know that in WW2, the top tax rate was around 93%. Don't have a source, just something I picked up somewhere.

As to why it's a problem, it should be obvious - it's hardly fair (not to mention moral) to take 90%+ of the money one earns, no matter how much they earn. It's even more unfair to give that money away for free to those who don't earn it. It's basically the wealth-transfer program - taking wealth from those who earned it and giving it to those who didn't.

	29-07-2004 02:35									#7
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yeah, but...

	29-07-2004 02:35									#8
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But the wealthiest do so much for this country! Their contributions to society are beyond measure! Of course they deserve to pay the least in taxes.



That is how it works here in Crazy World, isn't it?

	29-07-2004 02:36									#9
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It's hard to make a straight up comparison because you don't know what loopholes have been eliminated since.

	29-07-2004 02:37									#10
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AEROSMITH - Eat The Rich

Well I woke up this morning
On the wrong side of the bed
And how I got to thinkin'
About all those things you said
About ordinary people
And how they make you sick
And if callin' names kicks back on you
Then I hope this does the trick

'Cause I'm a sick of your complainin'
About how many bills
And I'm sick of all your b*tchin'
'Bout your poodles and your pills
And I just can't see no humour
About your way of life
And I think I can do more for you
With this here fork and knife

[Chorus:]
Eat the Rich: there's only one thing they're good for
Eat the Rich: take one bite now - come back for more
Eat the Rich: I gotta get this off my chest
Eat the Rich: take one bite now, spit out the rest

So I called up my head shrinker
And I told him what I'd done
Said you'd best go on a diet
Yeah I hope you have some fun
And a don't go burst a bubble
On the rich folks who get rude
'Cause you won't get in no trouble
When you eats that kinda food
Now their smokin' up the junk bonds
And then they go get stiff
And they're dancin' in the yacht club
With Muff and Uncle Biff
But there's one good thing that happens
When you toss your pearls to swine
Their attitudes may taste like sh*t
But go real good with wine
[Chorus]

Wake up kid, it's half past your youth
Ain't nothin' really changes but the date
You a grand slammer, but you no Babe Ruth
You gotta learn how to relate
Or you'll be swingin' from the pearly gate
Now you got all the answers, low and behold
You got the right key baby but the wrong key ho, yo

Believe in all the good things
That money just can't buy
Then you won't get no belly ache
From eatin' humble pie
I believe in rags to riches
Your inheritence won't last
So take your Grey Poupon my friend
And shove it up your ass!
[Chorus]

Eat the Rich: there's only one thing they're good for
Eat the Rich: take one bite now - come back for more
Eat the Rich: don't stop me now I'm goin' crazy
Eat the Rich: that's my idea of a good time baby

	29-07-2004 02:38									#11
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We should take a note from the incans and collect lice for tax.

	29-07-2004 02:49									#12
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Ahhh... after a few searches, I now see where those figures are coming from. They are probably refering to the "marginal tax rate" (as KrazyHorse pointed out) which were indeed that high. However, from one of the sites I looked at...

quote: The marginal tax rate is the rate on the last dollar of income earned. This is very different from the average tax rate, which is the total taxes paid as a percentage of total income earned. The seemingly arcane topic of marginal tax rates became the central theme of a revolution in economic policy that swept the globe in the eighties.

And...

quote: In the United States the concept of marginal tax rates is most familiar as tax brackets. Rapid inflation in the seventies pushed many skilled working couples up into the 50 percent tax bracket (then the highest rate on labor income). That did not mean that all of their income was taxed at a 50 percent rate. Instead, the first ten thousand dollars or so might be taxed at a 12 percent rate, the next ten thousand at a higher rate, and so on. Once the 50 percent bracket was reached, though, the federal government really did expect to collect half of any additional earnings. Average federal income taxes—taxes divided by income—have rarely been much more than 25 percent even for the superrich, even when (in the fifties) marginal tax brackets rose as high as 90 percent.

So while the "marginal tax rate" has been lowered a ton over the years... the actual average tax rate really hasn't.

	29-07-2004 02:50									#13
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http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

david, i know youre a libertarian and such, and as such really dont believe that anyone who cant make it shouldnt, but...

wouldnt an increase tax on the rich benefit the country a lot more? im trying to be realistic and trying to think of ways to benefit the working and service class as much as possible.

now i know that redistribution of wealth through services to the underclass isnt your idea of fair, but i want to live in a world where people can at least have health care if they need it, make a wage where they can live comfortably, and where the rich wont be beaten to death 50 years from now because things have gotten so ****ed

	29-07-2004 02:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by rah It's hard to make a straight up comparison because you don't know what loopholes have been eliminated since.

We know that significant loopholes were closed when the taxe rates were lowered. I don't know the specific loopholes though.

	29-07-2004 02:58									#15
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Ming: the problem with that is that it means more money is being collected at the expense of the middle class and less from the truly wealthy.

Tax bracket creep affects those with middle-range incomes more strongly than it does those with high incomes (not in absolute dollars but in percentage of gross income), whereas dropping the highest marginal tax rate helps those with highest incomes most (both in absolute dollars and as a percentage of gross income).

	29-07-2004 02:59									#16
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quote: wouldnt an increase tax on the rich benefit the country a lot more? im trying to be realistic and trying to think of ways to benefit the working and service class as much as possible.

No - point out an efficient government program. Found one? Good. Now think of all the examples of inefficient government programs. There's a lot more of them, aren't there. Now look at how the government handles money - huge debt, huge deficit, both rising.

Now, if you want to talk about health care, the US hovers near the top in terms of overall quality, and in terms of specialization, complex surgery, etc., we are at the top. If you want to talk about education of doctors, again, the US is at the top.

As to people having health care, they can either pay for it up front, or purchase health insurance. They can't afford it? Well, I guess it's time for a few lifestyle changes - but I can tell you that a lot of lower class families go without health insurance but somehow stay in Nikes and video games and junk food. Go figure - people set their own priorities, and when those don't work out to their best advantage, I'm not sympathetic. Why punish those who make good choices by forcing them to correct the bad choices of others? I don't see the point, or the wisdom.

And the rich aren't gonna be beaten to death in 50 years. Come on. The US just is NOT overrun by poverty - we are largely middle class, relative to the rest of the world, and relative to many parts of the world, the poorest Americans are fabulously wealthy.

In any case, it's illegal to beat people to death, and in my state, if someone tries to beat you to death, you can pull out your concealed handgun and shoot them back

And if that doesn't work, and you do beat someone to death, well, that's what Ole Sparky's for

	29-07-2004 03:02									#17
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Ming: the problem with that is that it means more money is being collected at the expense of the middle class and less from the truly wealthy.

From the same source:

quote: Despite widespread adoption of such policies, few seem to understand what marginal tax rates are and why they matter. In the United States, for example, it is commonly believed that the Reagan administration "slashed taxes," particularly for "the rich." Actually, real (that is, inflation-adjusted) federal receipts increased by one-third from 1980 to 1990. Moreover, the most affluent 5 percent of all taxpayers paid 45.9 percent of all federal income taxes in 1988—up from 37.6 percent in 1979. Apparent "tax cuts"—from a top marginal rate of 70 percent to 33 percent—became actual tax increases, particularly for "the rich."

	29-07-2004 03:04									#18
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And that, right there, is why libertarianism is the greatest pipe dream EVER, and thankfully, will NEVER happen, becuase in about 6 seconds, it would collapese into first anarchy, then dictaorship.

	29-07-2004 03:04									#19
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quote: whereas dropping the highest marginal tax rate helps those with highest incomes most

Does it? I ain't so sure that dropping that rate doesn't help increase the standard of living for everyone. Not to say that lowing the higher brakets rates to 0 would all of a sudden feed the hungry and put give them health care... Though, neither does lowering the taxes for all other brakets or even increasing those taxes. Government efficiency is an oxymoron after all.

I would agree that the middle class is the class that suffers the most. Taking less and giving more, marginally.

	29-07-2004 03:06									#20
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quote: And that, right there, is why libertarianism is the greatest pipe dream EVER, and thankfully, will NEVER happen, becuase in about 6 seconds, it would collapese into first anarchy, then dictaorship.

Huh? All I did was point out that the government is not known for creating efficient or effective programs, that the US health care system is currently at or near the top of the world in most categories, that many people who can't afford health care can afford other luxuries, and made some smart-ass comments about the "people's revolution".

No pipe dream with much of that, I think.

	29-07-2004 03:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd the poorest Americans are fabulously wealthy.

How rich are you? You are incredibly out of touch with mainstream America.

	29-07-2004 03:08									#22
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quote: Moreover, the most affluent 5 percent of all taxpayers paid 45.9 percent of all federal income taxes in 1988—up from 37.6 percent in 1979. Apparent "tax cuts"—from a top marginal rate of 70 percent to 33 percent—became actual tax increases, particularly for "the rich."

Well, there is another possible explination- relative incomes for those in the middle declined under Reagan and Bush 1 when compared to the rate of inflation, while the incomes of the top ballooned, meaning that even if the rates were cut, their share of income would rise, specially if onerous loopholes that allowed for massive tax evasion under the old systems vanished.

	29-07-2004 03:10									#23
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There's a radio personality named Rob Black who says that 'I don't mind paying more taxes, it means I'm making more money!'

For what ming bolded in the quote I wouldn't equate paying a higher over all percentage of taxes compared to the rest of the country to paying more taxes percentagewise. All that shows is that between 1979 and today the top 5% are making more money such that they are taxed 8% more... technically, improving the gap between classes by 8%.

Affluent also means that they make the money, income, not that they are sitting on mounds of cash doing nothing, or that is untaxable. Many people are mad that a lot of people through their monies into tax shelters.

	29-07-2004 03:12									#24
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quote: How rich are you? You are incredibly out of touch with mainstream America.

You misquoted me. As compared to the average resident of sub-Saharan Africa, for example, 99%+ of Americans would be considered fabulously wealthy.

	29-07-2004 03:13									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ming From the same source:

a) 1979 to 1988 were, AFAIK, the strongest inflationary years in US history

b) They're doing the top 5%. Take the top 1% and the answer might well be different

c) It does nothing to dispute the fact that the next 20% were probably more severely affected than the top 5%

d) How do you know the top 5% were not more wealthy (relative to the rest of the US population) in 1988 than they were in 1979? If that is the case then without changing the tax system at all and without any inflation whatsoever they still would have seen a tax increase (because they were making more).

	29-07-2004 03:13									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GePap [Well, there is another possible explination- relative incomes for those in the middle declined under Reagan and Bush 1 when compared to the rate of inflation, while the incomes of the top ballooned, meaning that even if the rates were cut, their share of income would rise, specially if onerous loopholes that allowed for massive tax evasion under the old systems vanished.

They did say "Actually, real (that is, inflation-adjusted) federal receipts increased by one-third from 1980 to 1990."

	29-07-2004 03:14									#27
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Tax the Rich? I'm taxed enough already

	29-07-2004 03:14									#28
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No - point out an efficient government program. Found one? Good. Now think of all the examples of inefficient government programs. There's a lot more of them, aren't there. Now look at how the government handles money - huge debt, huge deficit, both rising. Now, if you want to talk about health care, the US hovers near the top in terms of overall quality, and in terms of specialization, complex surgery, etc., we are at the top. If you want to talk about education of doctors, again, the US is at the top. As to people having health care, they can either pay for it up front, or purchase health insurance. They can't afford it? Well, I guess it's time for a few lifestyle changes - but I can tell you that a lot of lower class families go without health insurance but somehow stay in Nikes and video games and junk food. Go figure - people set their own priorities, and when those don't work out to their best advantage, I'm not sympathetic. Why punish those who make good choices by forcing them to correct the bad choices of others? I don't see the point, or the wisdom. And the rich aren't gonna be beaten to death in 50 years. Come on. The US just is NOT overrun by poverty - we are largely middle class, relative to the rest of the world, and relative to many parts of the world, the poorest Americans are fabulously wealthy. In any case, it's illegal to beat people to death, and in my state, if someone tries to beat you to death, you can pull out your concealed handgun and shoot them back And if that doesn't work, and you do beat someone to death, well, that's what Ole Sparky's for

David, as i said you dont care about what really happens so long as youre goals of every dog for himself are met. as this is the case you can stop participating in the discussion.

David, we are not "largely middle class". As time is moving on we are become more of a society of the haves, and have nots. we are turning into a service based economy. In this situation the people that are providing these services are not making enough to consume the services.

I also believe that a benevolent government (like canada) is a lot better than private enterprise to run everything. sure it may be wasteful, but at least it isnt sucking the soul out of you and trying to make you into a consumer whore.

	29-07-2004 03:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Tax the Rich? I'm taxed enough already

	29-07-2004 03:15									#30
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I got no problem with paying according to my means. If I make more, I have done so in part, due to my own efforts, and in part due to the system that celebrates them and encourages their use, so yeah. Sign me up for paying my fair share. If it's more than somebody else pays, what do I care? I'm game, and I got better things to do than pour over your tax returns to compare notes....

-=Vel=-