30-07-2004 08:51									#361
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Thought you'd get a kick, Kid....and you know I just love razzing you...

-=Vel=-

	30-07-2004 08:52									#362
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc When did you make your first million, che? I'll come over and take 90% of your money.

I'm still working on my second 100,000. I think I made my first last year. It took twenty years of working to hit 100,000. If things continue like the have for the past few years, I should have earned a million dollars by the time I'm sixty. Of course, I will likely have spent it all.

	30-07-2004 08:53									#363
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che, do you think youve lead a good life?

	30-07-2004 08:54									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Geronimo - That's a bogus argument, liberals won't let people hand over their money to their offspring when they're alive so they can avoid the death tax, there are all sorts of limits on what parents can give their kids to ensure there are estates liberals can tax to high heaven. It's called respecting their wishes. Dying people feel better when we do that... They can't make money when their dead either. So the money being taken was earned when they were alive, and that's when they are enslaved. Might as well tell people to spend everything they have because you will take it when they die. Hell, might as well send grave diggers into coffins to grab any other possessions they're buried with. Better yet, why bury people in marked graves we're supposed to leave indisturbed? According to you, they shouldn't even own the burial plot.

I do indeed suggest that people spend everything they have before they die. I even quoted carnegie earlier to the same effect.

Your other main point appears to be that we should give post mortem transactions the same value as we give to our control of our property while alive because to do otherwise would be to show no respect to the dead. Well, I certainly agree that respect for the dead is a good thing and I also agree that it is nice for people who are facing imminent death to feel better. However I daresay that you think that giving food and shelter to hungry homeless people is a nice thing and that people starving and being homeless is bad. However I don't think you would allow that these considerations should receive the same weight as your right to control your own property.

I maintain that the estate tax (while bad) is less bad than the income tax or sales tax or any other tax because it doesn't at any time constrain my control over my property. The others all require me to surrender control to others. The estate tax only hits when I have already surrendered my control anyway or when I am incable of making any decisions whatsoever.

So in summation I accept the estate tax as the least of the the available evils while also agreeing that respect for the dead is a good thing. Did that help illuminate my position?

	30-07-2004 08:54									#365
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A penny saved... eh Che? The trick is to make that a penny made.

Learn to make money, and not earn it.

	30-07-2004 08:56									#366
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Watch out now, Japher...you're in danger of joining me over here in the "faith zone"

-=Vel=-

	30-07-2004 08:59									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Japher A penny saved... eh Che? The trick is to make that a penny made. Learn to make money, and not earn it.

learn that at the end of your life how much money you made didnt make you a better, more worthy person. unless youre a calvinist

	30-07-2004 09:00									#368
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An excellent point, MRT....but you eat better and can pay for LOTS of therapy...

-=Vel=-

	30-07-2004 09:01									#369
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quote: im not a liberal, doofus. the thing that i dont think is important are the ideas that work and your means to work are all that you are worth, and all you should care about. this ties into my belief that to sustain a society where this idea is rejected there must also be a system that provides basics to people(health care, food, clothing, and shelter, work)

That makes you a liberal How about a car too? Need to be able to get to work you know

	30-07-2004 09:02									#370
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 che, do you think youve lead a good life?

Better than many, not as good as I'd like. I'd like to make enough one year to save for the times when I'm not working. I'm heavily in debt, but that's mostly student loans, which go on hold when you're unemployed, and I'm smart enough to have unemployment insurance for my credit cards, so my credit rating doesn't get worse (despite groups like Consumer Reports saying its a bad investment).

Up until a couple of years ago, though, I could not really say that was the case. I have been homeless. I have had sleepless nights trying to figure out how the hell I was gonna keep a roof over our heads, the power and telephone on, etc.

Health care is a great worry for me, since any sickness / accident on my part means a serious depletion of our income (even on unemployment, you have to be able to work).

	30-07-2004 09:03									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Gepap, the "estate" tax is a death tax, it's a tax we selectively impose on people when they die. If they didn't die, the tax wouldn't apply.

Again, what's wrong with that?

Certainly, whatever money and assets a person receives through inheritance should be counted as income. He did not pay a single penny of tax on that.

	30-07-2004 09:08									#372
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no. you dont get it. because i believe providing the essentials to people through the tax dollars of those who have more than 10x the income of the needy, makes me a liberal?

i believe everyone has unailable rights, some of which are basic needs being met.

i dont believe in gun control. I dont believe in beuracracy. i dont believe that pansy ass, the earth is sacred, animals are people bullshit. I just believe in providing people the basics they need, so they can attain what they want out of life.

	30-07-2004 09:10									#373
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 no. you dont get it. because i believe providing the essentials to people through the tax dollars of those who have more than 10x the income of the needy, makes me a liberal?

Yes.

The difference between liberal and conservative.

Liberals want to regulate business and help people.
Conservatives want to help business and regulate people.

You seem to fall in the former camp.

	30-07-2004 09:13									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Everyone in a community starts out with $100. Some people, being more inventive, more hard working, etc., figure out ways to turn that $100 into $1000 while others squander what they have. Now the people who squandered their money ask those who did not for help.

Your hypothetical scenario bears zero resemblance to reality.

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The "rich" say, "sure, I've figured out a way to make farming more productive with this machine and I need help making machines". So they hire the less inventive who've squandered their money. Result: the "rich" get richer and their employees regain what they lost and more in addition to a better sense of hard work and responsibility.

Again, your hypothetical scenario bears zero resemblance to reality.

	30-07-2004 09:16									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Japher It ain't what you are born into it is what you become...

And several people are arguing successfully that those are more often the same thing.

quote: Originally posted by Japher Why are people more concerned with Other Peoples Money than with their own. Get your own! And, Kid, if you want help I have good connections in Fresno.

Was I asking for help for myself? No. I'm arguing for a just society.

	30-07-2004 09:17									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx 36k trust fund millionaires vs 234k boostraped ones Again....which number is bigger? I know math's not my strong suit, so...help me out.

Counting individuals only makes sense if they have the same wealth. If their wealth is unequal, this comparison makes absolutely no sense. You have to compare the aggregate weatlh of both sides instead.

	30-07-2004 09:18									#377
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes. The difference between liberal and conservative. Liberals want to regulate business and help people. Conservatives want to help business and regulate people. You seem to fall in the former camp.

if business wasnt too busy trying to meet investor needs rather than people's needs i would support business rather than government

If i could create a charity that people would want to contribute to i would.

i also dont believe that the terms liberal and conservitive fully define what a person is.

	30-07-2004 09:19									#378
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 i also dont believe that the terms liberal and conservitive fully define what a person is.

No single term, except maybe human being, does. That's not a failing of terms though. It's a failing of people to realize that necessarily limited terms don't limit the person.

	30-07-2004 09:19									#379
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm still working on my second 100,000. I think I made my first last year. It took twenty years of working to hit 100,000. If things continue like the have for the past few years, I should have earned a million dollars by the time I'm sixty. Of course, I will likely have spent it all.

What do you do for a living?

	30-07-2004 09:19									#380
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The answer to the creation of a just society, Kid, is not...I repeat, is NOT to be found in creating a society where everybody sticks their nose in everyone else's business for a full, detailed accounting of who's got what, in order to take from those who, through their god given talents begin to pull ahead of the pack.

If you wanna live in a society where "one good turn-in deserves another" great! Absolutely fantastic!

But that's about as far away from "just" as I can imagine.

-=Vel=-

	30-07-2004 09:19									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Your hypothetical scenario bears zero resemblance to reality. Again, your hypothetical scenario bears zero resemblance to reality.

How is this accusation helpful? Give us a comparible analogy which would bare a much closer resemblance to reality.

	30-07-2004 09:20									#382
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm still working on my second 100,000. I think I made my first last year. It took twenty years of working to hit 100,000. If things continue like the have for the past few years, I should have earned a million dollars by the time I'm sixty. Of course, I will likely have spent it all.

I thought it was suppossed to be easy to become an internet millionaire according to you. Where's the millions?

quote: if business wasnt too busy trying to meet investor needs rather than people's needs

What are investors? Trees?

	30-07-2004 09:20									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Learn to make money, and not earn it.

You can't make money unless someone earns it. Think about that.

	30-07-2004 09:21									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What do you do for a living?

I think he's unemployed atm.

	30-07-2004 09:21									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And Berz made the point about a dozen times now that people usually don't inherit wealth until after they're already well on they're way to being rich, or are already there.

What Berz missed completely is the help these people received from their families when they started out. Such as knowing the right people or giving them seed money.

As GePap pointed out, how many of these self-made millionaires started from the bottom 5% or 10%?

	30-07-2004 09:21									#386
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UR: It makes perfect sense.

The original hypothesis was that you're far more likely to be born into wealth than to bootstrap your way to it.

The hypothesis said NOTHING about who accumulates more wealth, only that you cross the line.

Earlier, we determined that a cool mil was "rich" so using that as a starting point, I gathered the data and...pretty well blew said hypothesis outta the water.



-=Vel=-

	30-07-2004 09:23									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo How is this accusation helpful? Give us a comparible analogy which would bare a much closer resemblance to reality.

It is not an accusation, it's a rebuttal.

Berzerker was trying to establish some kind of la-la land hypothetical, thus it is up to him to make it work. Distractors only need to point out the flaws in his model.

	30-07-2004 09:23									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The answer to the creation of a just society, Kid, is not...I repeat, is NOT to be found in creating a society where everybody sticks their nose in everyone else's business for a full, detailed accounting of who's got what, in order to take from those who, through their god given talents begin to pull ahead of the pack. If you wanna live in a society where "one good turn-in deserves another" great! Absolutely fantastic! But that's about as far away from "just" as I can imagine. -=Vel=-

How can we have justice if we don't pay attention?

	30-07-2004 09:25									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What Berz missed completely is the help these people received from their families when they started out. Such as knowing the right people or giving them seed money. As GePap pointed out, how many of these self-made millionaires started from the bottom 5% or 10%?

We're talking about the inheritence tax, right?

	30-07-2004 09:26									#390
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How can we have justice when we send any and everybody who doesn't preach the party gospel and march in perfect goose-stepping fashion to the beat of the party drum to special "re-education camps" and make their families disappear in the night?

-=Vel=-