30-07-2004 13:48									#121
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Oh, certainly.

I'd even wager that more of them killed each other in warfare and murder than the Euros did (on average) at the time.

Just mentioning that it's funny to point to scalping as an indication of Indian savagery...

EDIT: I mean than the Euros killed of each other, not than the Euros killed of indians

	30-07-2004 13:49									#122
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yeah, right. tell that to the Maya.

	30-07-2004 13:49									#123
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither yeah, right. tell that to the Maya.

Or the spanish.

	30-07-2004 13:50									#124
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They did spend some time killing each other though. Twas not all blissful peace and innocence.

Of course not. People have killed people for about as long as people have existed. I'm not disputing that. I just don't believe the Native Americans were worse than the Europeans in that regard.

	30-07-2004 13:50									#125
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Compared to europe it was.

I really doubt it.

Violence is a very common cause of death among tribal societies.

Much more so than in more developed societeies.

	30-07-2004 13:50									#126
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XPost.

The scalping bit is funny, given that so many see it as 'native'. I'm not sure it didn;t have a basis in some tribe or band, but it was certainly encouraged and spread.

	30-07-2004 13:52									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Guardian Of course not. People have killed people for about as long as people have existed. I'm not disputing that. I just don't believe the Native Americans were worse than the Europeans in that regard.

Certainly not worse. You can find examples of bone chilling practices from everywhere.

When you go past a point, who is to say which is 'worse', except an idiot?

	30-07-2004 13:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither When you go past a point, who is to say which is 'worse', except an idiot?

Exactly!

	30-07-2004 14:00									#129
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Europeans would be worse simply through capacity to be so, if nothing else. Who's going to have more violence and savagery, nomadic tribes and small empires spread across a huge continent, or large imperialist empires who're all crowded together on a small continent and invading others?

	30-07-2004 14:01									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse It's always been the case that the right wing has better chicks, and more willing. You can't deny that.

Right wing and left wing speach do not aim the same part of the body. There's about 1 meter difference.
No surprise blondes are more attracted by right wing speach.

	30-07-2004 14:02									#131
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While Aztecs where making sacrifices, europeans where going on inquisitions, burning and tortuing people. When tribes where fueding, europeans where crusading.

	30-07-2004 14:02									#132
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How about the city states that conquered other city states and put everyone there to the sword?

The problem with the lilly white myth is that the Central Americans left records in stone.

Ever hear what happened when Cree met Innu?

	30-07-2004 14:03									#133
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quote: IIRC the first scalping was carried out by whites on American Indians. I think it had something to do with collecting the bounty on dead natives.

The French taught Indians to scalp the Brits as proof of kills (for a bounty) during the French and Indian wars.

Of course, a couple centuries earlier the Aztecs were flaying people, so it all just shows how cruel people can be towards each other. It's what separates us from the animals.

	30-07-2004 14:08									#134
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If I was single, lonely and drunk then there's a chance I'd hit it with Ann if she'd shut her big blubbering trap long enough for me to take care of business.

I can think of better uses of her mouth than talking.

	30-07-2004 14:08									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Stupid in that I believe in abstinence...

It's not like you have a choice.

	30-07-2004 14:11									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse It's always been the case that the right wing has better chicks, and more willing. You can't deny that.

Who bothers finding out if a woman is right or left. If she's willing that's all that matter.

	30-07-2004 14:46									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But that takes talent to write that way, to convey these emotions. Thanks for demonstrating my point.

hitler's "mein kampf" is also written in a very clear language. and it conveyd his emotions in a very clear way. what was your point again ?

	30-07-2004 16:23									#138
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HOTT

	30-07-2004 16:30									#139
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Regarding the OP, this was an excerpt of an article that was supposed to be written for the USA today as a humor take from the right wing wack job POV.

Correspondingly the deal was to allow Michael Moore his opportunity to spount his left wing drivel at the GOP convention.

USA today censored Coulter on this one and would not run her article. Any takers on whether Michael Moore will be allowed his opportunity to spout his hatred?

	30-07-2004 18:55									#140
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I think she's quite humorous. She's certainly better looking than that blob of **** Moore (who has no sense of humor).

	30-07-2004 18:59									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe USA today censored Coulter on this one and would not run her article. Any takers on whether Michael Moore will be allowed his opportunity to spout his hatred?

Well, if he is less offensive and more humorous than this right wing intellectual pornographer, certainly his will.

	30-07-2004 19:55									#142
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I really doubt it. Violence is a very common cause of death among tribal societies. Much more so than in more developed societeies.

Increased population density and work specialization does increase the number of possible ways to die nastily and early, but for the most part, native conflict (excluding the central and south American empires) was small scale, local actions involving spontaneous contact or competition for resources.

There just weren't enough of them close enough together to generate really high numbers of battle deaths compared to death from other causes.

	30-07-2004 19:57									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Regarding the OP, this was an excerpt of an article that was supposed to be written for the USA today as a humor take from the right wing wack job POV. Correspondingly the deal was to allow Michael Moore his opportunity to spount his left wing drivel at the GOP convention. USA today censored Coulter on this one and would not run her article. Any takers on whether Michael Moore will be allowed his opportunity to spout his hatred?

Has he said all Republicans are traitors, or spawn of satan? But yeah, you're right, I guess splicing pictures of Bush family members being all buddy-buddy with their Saudi masters over funny background music is "hatred." We should really be thankful to those generous Saudis for all they do for our economy.

	30-07-2004 20:18									#144
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It occurs to me that this thread has reached five pages without anyone pointing out the arguably insulting in her implicit assumption that pretty girls chose political ideologies based on their male adherents' forwardness.

	30-07-2004 20:54									#145
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MtG, don;t you know that calling someone a liar and stupid is on the same plane as devil spawns and traitors? It shows an equal depth of hatred most certainly.....

	30-07-2004 21:07									#146
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Has he said all Republicans are traitors, or spawn of satan? But yeah, you're right, I guess splicing pictures of Bush family members being all buddy-buddy with their Saudi masters over funny background music is "hatred." We should really be thankful to those generous Saudis for all they do for our economy.

That does bring up a question that I have been wondering about of late . . . . .


is the United States a puppet of Saudi Arabia, or is Saudi Arabia a puppet of United States?

	30-07-2004 21:51									#147
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Europeans would be worse simply through capacity to be so, if nothing else. Who's going to have more violence and savagery, nomadic tribes and small empires spread across a huge continent, or large imperialist empires who're all crowded together on a small continent and invading others?

And yet if you compare the rates of violent deaths I can almost guarantee you that NA in 1491 beat Europe in 1491

The thing about centralised governments is that they tend to monopolise violence, both as a tool of repression and of conquest.

When the violence occurs in this type of system it is massive and devastating, however if you add the numbers up you will generally find that the supposedly peaceful indigenous societies have a higher rate of violent death through a steadily higher murder rate (no police force, no jail, less societal consequences for personal violence) and through almost constant low-level warfare with neighbouring social groups.

	30-07-2004 21:59									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist She better never visit Europe.

Europe is a Lie of Evil Liberal Nutbags. It doesn't exist. That's what my Leprechaun friend told me and Leprechauns never lie.

	30-07-2004 22:02									#149
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And yet if you compare the rates of violent deaths I can almost guarantee you that NA in 1491 beat Europe in 1491

I'd be willing to dispute you.

	30-07-2004 22:03									#150
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Increased population density and work specialization does increase the number of possible ways to die nastily and early, but for the most part, native conflict (excluding the central and south American empires) was small scale, local actions involving spontaneous contact or competition for resources. There just weren't enough of them close enough together to generate really high numbers of battle deaths compared to death from other causes.

Untrue. I've read a couple of studies on this which find a much higher rate of violent deaths among native populations than you would expect to.

The point is twofold:

1) Murders occur much more frequently in societies where the government has not taken over most of the uses of violence for its own ends. There's simply more of a chance of "getting away" (with regards both to judicial consequences and social consequences) with murder in tribal societies than in a centralised state and so there are more murders.

2) The warfare that occurs is almost constant. Raids go on on a monthly basis (depending on which area you're talking about). There is no all-out warfare, but the fact that the individual "states" are so much tinier (and thus have a much larger border to area ratio) means that a much larger proportion of a tribe's population is engaged in this warfare than you would expect in a centralised state. Almost all the men will participate. It would have been a rare male who had not seen battle in most tribal societies (again, with some notable exceptions like the Inuit). In Europe, on the other hand, it was a rare generation that saw most of its young men in the armed forces.

Again, this is not to say that aboriginal societies were any more brutal than European societies. They each had their special way of being "worse".