01-08-2004 12:21									#1
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Moving my ancient cavalry past a Korean town, a resident spearman reaches out and gives me a ZOC blow as I go by. The town is size 2 and has a wall due to the Great Wall. No mention of ZOC for spearmen, walls, Great Wall, or towns in the 'Pedia. I'm playing with the Tarzan Mod, basically the AU mod with additional terrain limitations.

	01-08-2004 15:59									#2
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That's odd ...

The only thing I can think of off-hand would be that there was a fortress under the city. Don't know if that's possible.

	01-08-2004 21:03									#3
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City Walls give ZOC.

	02-08-2004 05:57									#4
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Since there's no mention of that in the Civilopedia, I'm guessing it's one of the dozens of items patched into the game without any documentation...?

	02-08-2004 06:00									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson City Walls give ZOC.

Yep... not in the 'pedia though. I am a big fan of walls.

	02-08-2004 06:10									#6
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So there's a point to building them in cities and metropolises(i?) then?

This may be an improvement for gameplay, but it doesn't make much sense historically.

	02-08-2004 07:01									#7
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You've never seen 'Escape from New York'?

	02-08-2004 07:07									#8
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Actually, walls around big cities I've seen, I just don't see how any wall could increase military influence over the surrounding countryside. Just the opposite, I imagine.

	02-08-2004 07:11									#9
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Wow. This is why I love this site. I've never experienced the spearman zoc stab, but it obvious that changes are made in every patch without documentation. Interesting thread.

	07-08-2004 08:32									#10
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That is news to me. Does this apply only in C3C, or other versions?

	08-08-2004 04:05									#11
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Does the ZOC disappear when the place grows to city or metropolis size?

	09-08-2004 10:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Does the ZOC disappear when the place grows to city or metropolis size?

Or conversely, does a city automatically get a ZoC since it automatically acquires walls at size 7?

	10-08-2004 04:59									#13
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I have never seens this happen. Though I don't often blace past cities. I attack and conquer them

	10-08-2004 06:54									#14
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I've never heard of this.

	10-08-2004 10:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I have never seens this happen. Though I don't often blace past cities. I attack and conquer them

My thoughts exactly. I can't really imagine a situation where I'd be moving right past a city I'm at war with.

	10-08-2004 10:37									#16
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It's an elimination game where fast-movers can't go through any rough terrain, including forest. You guys are sooo whitebread...

	15-08-2004 19:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D It's an elimination game where fast-movers can't go through any rough terrain, including forest. You guys are sooo whitebread...

Tarzan?

	15-08-2004 19:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D It's an elimination game where fast-movers can't go through any rough terrain, including forest. You guys are sooo whitebread...

I REALLY can't imagine brushing past a city in an elimination game.

	16-08-2004 06:38									#19
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If I'm going to capture a third city and in the process destroy the rest of their civilization, I'd rather take the 12 pop city with the Great Wall itself than thrash away at a frontier nothing town that offers the same definsive bonus. (the OCN and corresponding corruption penalty has been modified to strongly discourage the formation of extra cities)

	16-08-2004 19:12									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I REALLY can't imagine brushing past a city in an elimination game.

Actually, it's quite common in MP 1-city elim games. One reason you would do it to seize control of an opponents road. Example: I move a fat stack of horsemen next to your city. You reinforce the heck out of said city with spearmen, thinking that I'll attack it. Instead of attacking the city, I move 2 squares AROUND the city onto your road, so that I can go for a more weakly defended interior city (now that the bulk of your defense is in the city I just passed by).

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't think I've ever seen city walls give ZOC. Gonna have to test this one...

	17-08-2004 05:26									#21
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I have often been confounded by seeing units that aren't listed as having a ZOC and not in a fort lashing out as other units passed them by. I can't remember if this happened around cities, but it would make sense.

	17-08-2004 20:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Actually, it's quite common in MP 1-city elim games. One reason you would do it to seize control of an opponents road. Example: I move a fat stack of horsemen next to your city. You reinforce the heck out of said city with spearmen, thinking that I'll attack it. Instead of attacking the city, I move 2 squares AROUND the city onto your road, so that I can go for a more weakly defended interior city (now that the bulk of your defense is in the city I just passed by).

that's a good idea.

I imagine armies pwn even more than usual in elim games.

	17-08-2004 21:06									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I imagine armies pwn even more than usual in elim games.

Pwn?

Actually, armies are less effective against other humans than against the AI, IMO. Humans aren't afraid to attack armies, and seem to be pretty good at disposing of them.

	17-08-2004 21:57									#24
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Conquests Armies are much better than pre-conquests:

1. Extra movement point. In addition to increasing speed, this gives an Army of Swords retreat ability against 1 MP defenders and also negates attacking Horsemen ability to retreat.

2. No Movement cost pillaging. Tear the roads up of enemy territory as you march thru, particlarly that connection to Iron / Horse / Luxary.

3. Higher Attack and Defense factors. 33% attacking and 20% defending? (I'm not sure about the numbers)

4. Multiple attacks allowed.

	17-08-2004 22:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Conquests Armies are much better than pre-conquests

No doubt about it. Armies really rock post-C3C.

I'm just saying that they are more effective against the AI than they are against other humans. That's been my experience anyway.

	17-08-2004 22:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Pwn?

Own, but way cooler

quote: Actually, armies are less effective against other humans than against the AI, IMO. Humans aren't afraid to attack armies, and seem to be pretty good at disposing of them.

Yes, but an army or two can pretty much guarantee taking a city. Especially a fast-mover army - three moves can get it pretty deep. Even worse, a Rider or Cav army

	17-08-2004 22:43									#27
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[q] Originally posted by joncnunn
3. Higher Attack and Defense factors. 33% attacking and 20% defending? (I'm not sure about the numbers)[/QUOTE]

It's calculated thusly: sum up all the attack values of the units in the army and divide by six. Add that to the average attack value. When you get the Mil. Academy, divide by four instead.

	17-08-2004 23:16									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yes, but an army or two can pretty much guarantee taking a city. Especially a fast-mover army - three moves can get it pretty deep. Even worse, a Rider or Cav army

Nope, I still disagree. There is absolutely no guarantee of taking a city from a human opponent with an army. You should see some of these people defend!

Of course, it helps. Yes, a Rider, Ansar, or Cav army is scary. I've just seen too many times when that Rider army takes out one or two pikeman in a city, loses some hp, and then is slaughtered by counterattacking medievals/knights/horses.

	17-08-2004 23:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Pwn? Own, but way cooler

Yes, especially when one is of the 1337 variety

	18-08-2004 00:56									#30
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Isn't just about every tactic much more effective when used against the AI than other humans?

quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis No doubt about it. Armies really rock post-C3C. I'm just saying that they are more effective against the AI than they are against other humans. That's been my experience anyway.