05-08-2004 00:54									#31
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark and liberals are going to bat for employment at will,

Yoohoo! I'm standing right here! Hello!

	05-08-2004 00:56									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yoohoo! I'm standing right here! Hello!

May I help you?

	05-08-2004 00:59									#33
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Boris, you're misreading:

He said that you're a liberal and that you are applying the "hire and fire at will" philosophy...

Which is odd, given traditional lines of debate...

	05-08-2004 01:00									#34
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I think you should notice that the divide is more Euro/American though LOTM

The Euros are for the employee

The Americans are for the company

Again, odd given the headscarves issue...

	05-08-2004 01:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Boris, you're misreading: He said that you're a liberal and that you are applying the "hire and fire at will" philosophy... Which is odd, given traditional lines of debate...

Oopsie.

Regardless, it's not odd for me, since I've always been pretty consistent in supporting employment at will.

	05-08-2004 01:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Does Islam consider the Pig a magical animal? Traditional Judaism doesnt, AFAIK. Its banned cause God said so, without going into his motives, for the most part. Nothing magical about them at all.

Coming in contact with "the dirty animal" prevents one's entrance into Heaven, or so the belief goes. That's why the Israelis were considering having live pigs or pork products on busses to discourage suicide bombers.

	05-08-2004 01:09									#37
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quote: It is. For some people, wearing a headscarf is a part of their religious beliefs. Eating pork is a part of no one's religious beliefs.

So...????
This only holds water if you put (any) religion before all.
Eating pork harms no-one, therefore the compagny should shut the f*** up and let her do her job.

	05-08-2004 01:11									#38
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No way would the reaction from the leftists be the same if this were a Christian owned business imposing some kind of rule.

So long as they actually did inform her of the policy, I think the company is within it's rights.

	05-08-2004 01:12									#39
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quote: No way would the reaction from the leftists be the same if this were a Christian owned business imposing some kind of rule.

Yes it would be.

	05-08-2004 01:13									#40
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I can't say I like the idea of religious folk being able to enforce their dietary laws and other stuff on their employees. And I suppose there could be some sort of 'right to eat freely' drafted for workers.

But

What if one employee insisted on eating raw offal in the canteen? There's no medical reason not too, for well-prepared offal, but it certainly violates my 'dietary laws'.

Unless I can think of a reason to ban enforcing dietary laws on unwilling employees (whilst still allowing the offal-eater to be disciplined) that isn't ethnocentric, the religionistas have won this round, sadly.

	05-08-2004 01:13									#41
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quote: No way would the reaction from the leftists be the same if this were a Christian owned business imposing some kind of rule.

like me, and Ramo, for example.



EDIT: oh, and alva, who's leftist by default (Europe)

	05-08-2004 01:13									#42
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quote: Yes it would be.

Indeed it would.

	05-08-2004 01:15									#43
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quote: What if one employee insisted on eating raw offal in the canteen?

What's an offal?
Edit: ok, googled it.

Common sence often does the trick.

	05-08-2004 01:16									#44
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you have to respect the company policies. Assuming she knew it was a policy, signing an agreement or not doesn't matter. She took the job, didn't she? SO if she knew about this policy, or was told to read and learn the policy herself, then she's in the wrong.

	05-08-2004 01:19									#45
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Great. Now we endorse additional institutions (companies) to control our private life.

That lady should have not eaten the BLT at work, but rather, stopped by the McDonalds drivethru every morning and purchased a bacon, sausage, scrapple biscuit. Eat it in the car, go into the building and blow "unclean breath" on every single Muslim present.

Even better if she adopts the "closing talker" conversational technique.

	05-08-2004 01:24									#46
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quote: She took the job, didn't she?

Like anyone would refuse it because some ***** has stated " no pork". in it

	05-08-2004 01:26									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka you have to respect the company policies. Assuming she knew it was a policy, signing an agreement or not doesn't matter. She took the job, didn't she? SO if she knew about this policy, or was told to read and learn the policy herself, then she's in the wrong.

Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Besides his rules are religiously based and thus against Federal law. Christians have gotten the pants sued off of them for much less so this is going to be an open and shut case.

	05-08-2004 01:27									#48
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quote: Besides his rules are religiously based and thus against Federal law

Nope.

	05-08-2004 01:27									#49
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I don't see much difference between this case and the case of the Christian fundie who was fired for putting the "lol God hates fags" Leviticus quotes on his cubicle awhile back. This lady and the fundie were both potentially creating an uncomfortable environment for their coworkers, both were warned that they were in violation of company policy, both ignored the warning, and both were fired as a result. The only difference, I suppose, is that I love bacon and I don't particularly love the "lol God hates fags" quotes from Leviticus.

I'll see if I can dredge up the thread on the fundie getting fired.

	05-08-2004 01:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I think you should notice that the divide is more Euro/American though LOTM The Euros are for the employee The Americans are for the company Again, odd given the headscarves issue...

cause that was a GOVERNMENT policy, and it was banning something which WAS (according to some muslims) religiously required - as has been said above, this woman has not claimed her religion REQUIRES her to eat pork.

	05-08-2004 01:29									#51
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quote: Eating pork harms no-one, therefore the compagny should shut the f*** up and let her do her job.

But they didn't want her to eat the pork in their workplace because they believe it to be unclean. So it harmed them. They own the company, therefore the employee should shut the f*** up and follow company policy on the prohibition of eating pork .

	05-08-2004 01:30									#52
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Just get rid off religion as a whole.

	05-08-2004 01:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark cause that was a GOVERNMENT policy, and it was banning something which WAS (according to some muslims) religiously required - as has been said above, this woman has not claimed her religion REQUIRES her to eat pork.

I understand the justification from the Ami side. Not from the Euro side...

	05-08-2004 01:32									#54
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quote: I don't see much difference between this case and the case of the Christian fundie who was fired for putting the "lol God hates fags" Leviticus quotes on his cubicle awhile back. This lady and the fundie were both potentially creating an uncomfortable environment for their coworkers, both were warned that they were in violation of company policy, both ignored the warning, and both were fired as a result. The only difference, I suppose, is that I love bacon and I don't particularly love the "lol God hates fags" quotes from Leviticus.

Another case involving Christian fundies was a woman who continually wore a large pin with an aborted fetus on it. She wouldn't wear another anti-abortion pin and created an uncomfortable situation for other employees and thus was fired and it was deemed not discrimination based on religious beliefs.

	05-08-2004 01:33									#55
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The reason she will win is because there is no other purpose for the pork ban then to force other people to abide by one groups religious rules. Forcing other people to observe religious practices as a condition of employment is against federal law and so these guys are going to lose alot of money.

	05-08-2004 01:33									#56
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quote: Forcing other people to observe religious practices as a condition of employment is against federal law

No it isn't.

	05-08-2004 01:35									#57
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Basically, according to US law as now practiced, I think the woman has no case. If there's a rule that you're not allowed to eat certain things on the premises then you're not allwed to eat certain things on the premises.

I'm much more uncertain as to whether or not I believe the company should be allowed to fire somebody for this.

	05-08-2004 01:37									#58
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I have $5 that says she wins. Want to bet?

	05-08-2004 01:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi No way would the reaction from the leftists be the same if this were a Christian owned business imposing some kind of rule.

Yeah, care to give an example to me? Why is it you constantly whine about the left like this?

	05-08-2004 01:40									#60
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Ok, im enough of a social democrat to NOT be real firm on employment at will, and I AM uncomfortable at the notion of LARGE firms imposing a rule like this on all their employees (which seems to go BEYOND the requirements of religious law, if it doesnt allow a side room for "trief" meat). OTOH the law IS the law, and the companys rights are what they are, AND Im uncomfortable at people judging these policies without knowledge of or any respect for the religious issues involved - that, ultimately is WHY, from a liberal point of view, we have property rights - not cause property is sacred, or its the only efficient system, but precisely because private property is NECESSARY to provide a space for diversity, for minorities, for dissent.

So as a Social democrat I sympathize with the employee - as a liberal, I sympathize with the employer/ (needless to say as a Jew I have allies on both sides, of diffferent kinds) So my final suggestion, very American (or at least it was at one time) DONT rely on govt law to protect the employee - rely on COLLECTIVE BARGAINING - in other words, dont SUE, lady, JOIN A UNION - ORGANIZE. This will limit the arbitrary power of the employer, will probably have limited effect on small businesses, and by putting things in a negotiating context can lead to a compromise solution. And leaves private property rights standing.