05-08-2004 13:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do Jews hate Germany? It is such a long time ago. Most of these "kids" probably don't even understand ww2. Judging by what you said about their papers, they don't seem to have a full grasp of the situation. They simply are this way because of peer pressure and/or the school are propogating this hatred.

Many do.

	05-08-2004 13:51									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Take China under KMT and China under CCP. I dunno. Compare 14/05/1927 to 05/05/1964. Which is better? Certainly Mao made mistakes. The thing is it is generally held that his accomplishments are greater.

I suspect dead people don't answer those polling questions.

	05-08-2004 13:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko So you tell people to melt down all kinds of things (including farm implements) and spend much of the day doing this instead of farming and its difficult to see how famine could result?

Great Leap Forward is mainly the collectivisation of farming.

Famine had more to do with bad weather than anything else. 3 years of it didn't help.

	05-08-2004 13:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Maybe they should direct that hate at the commie party. It has screwed them over worse than the Japanese ever have? Really? That's an interesting bit of unknown history.

[QUOTE]

Well I did put the question mark there for a reason.
But how many Chinese did the Japanese kill during the occupation and war? More than Mao's 30 millions? And of course, the communists haven't exactly provided democracy and freedom for the Chinese people.
Plague or cholera - make your choice!

	05-08-2004 13:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You are talking about something else. Great Leap Forward is the collectivisation of farming.

Are you saying that the backyard steel furnaces weren't a fundamental part of the Great Leap Forward?

	05-08-2004 14:00									#36
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The major roadblock is that the government, even the education refuses to admit that the Japan of WWII was a monstrosity, refused to admit its war crimes...

I mean, hey, its okay to admit it; it means you recognise your mistake and that you have changed, all the more to respect you.

But the Japanese government seems to think otherwise.

	05-08-2004 14:03									#37
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OK. But why keep the grudge going? That can't be good in a global economy, let alone a world of nuclear weapons.

	05-08-2004 14:05									#38
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Maybe because it should be mutual?

The majority of the Japanese students are being kept in the dark of what REALLY happened in World War II, and the Rape of Nanjing. Why? Its not in the syllabus.

Read their textbooks, they come up with all sorts of funny justifications for the war...

	05-08-2004 14:07									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Are you saying that the backyard steel furnaces weren't a fundamental part of the Great Leap Forward?

It's a major feature, but it was not the fundamental objective.

	05-08-2004 14:08									#40
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OK. They are being idiots. Are they being combative? What is gained by inflaming sentiments on one side towards the other?

	05-08-2004 14:11									#41
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Its inherent; the current Japanese generation are actually snobbing some of the Chinese because of whats printed in the textbooks about the Chinese...

Actually I am not sure. Things like that run deep, deep wounds that take centuries to heal. Chinese culture is very reactionary. If any of you know about the Chinese reaction when actress Vicki Zhao wore a Japanese wartime flag dress at a fashion show....

	05-08-2004 14:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf If any of you know about the Chinese reaction when actress Vicki Zhao wore a Japanese wartime flag dress at a fashion show....

Imagine going down Tel Aviv cloaked in a Nazi battle flag.

	05-08-2004 14:13									#43
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Urban Ranger just hit the nail on the head. Exactly.

In fact, Vicki was very popular, from her appearance as lead character of "Little Swallow" (commoner village girl turned adopted princess), and wearing the dress made her popularity plunge. Chinese culture is very very reactionary.

	05-08-2004 14:15									#44
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Canadians, and Brits, and Yanks, and Aussies, and Dutch, and Koreans, and Phillipinos, and... have reasons to not like Japanese behaviour during a certain period, and subsequent Japanese government attitudes towards the past as well.

Do we gain anything by sitting in our respective holes and flinging dung at each other?

	05-08-2004 14:16									#45
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But the scars on China are deep.

How would you like it if the new government, supposed to be mindful and responsible, absolutely refused to acknolwedge them?

	05-08-2004 14:20									#46
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Dashi said something interesting. Japan has not apologised, but China would never apologise for something similar. Is that true?

	05-08-2004 14:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Do we gain anything by sitting in our respective holes and flinging dung at each other?

One thing the Japanese government can do is stop visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which enshrines 14 Class A war criminals. You don't see the Germans enshrine Hitler et al. That's just not done. Or they can throw the murderers out, which is the proper way to fix this.

Another thing they can do is to reign in the rightwingers and stop whitewashing their actions during WWII.

A wound can't heal until you clean it thoroughly and stop messing with it.

	05-08-2004 14:25									#48
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When will the PRC stop adoring Mao?

I have Chinese clients to this day who insist that none of their computer components come from the PRC.

Are we not asking more than others are willing to give?

	05-08-2004 14:26									#49
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Dashi said something interesting. Japan has not apologised, but China would never apologise for something similar. Is that true?

Impossible to say.

During the last 200 years or so China had been on the receiving end of aggressions and invasions, up till the end of WWII.

	05-08-2004 14:26									#50
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And would China apologise if the situations were reversed?

	05-08-2004 14:28									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Impossible to say. During the last 200 years or so China had been on the receiving end of aggressions and invasions, up till the end of WWII.

How can it be impossible to say if you expect it unconditionally from someone else?

Where are the apologies to Tibetans, or the families of the victims of the early stages of the revolution? Can that be mustered?

	05-08-2004 14:32									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither When will the PRC stop adoring Mao?

Adoring Mao? Mao is properly revered as the driving force behind the founding of the PRC. It was the first time in centuries that China regained its feet, not fragmented by various warlords or subjugated by an outside power.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are we not asking more than others are willing to give?

Com'on, we haven't asked for compensations for all the deaths and damaged caused by Japanese invasion and occupation. That would be a staggering sum.

	05-08-2004 14:33									#53
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What about a quiet apology at the grave sides of all those victims of the revolution. Can that be done?

	05-08-2004 14:37									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How can it be impossible to say if you expect it unconditionally from someone else?

Because we haven't invaded another country and systematically carried out large scale murders.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Where are the apologies to Tibetans, or the families of the victims of the early stages of the revolution? Can that be mustered?

Tibet is a complex issue, but evidence exists that it was never an indepedent country. For example, the selection of a new lama would need to be ultimately approved by Beijing, even way back during the Qing dynasty.

As for people who were wrongfully accused or killed during the Cultural Revolution, say, their honour was restored and (some) compensation was made.

	05-08-2004 14:42									#55
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By "early stages of the revolution", are you referring to the Cultural Revolution?

There were very little civilian casualties comitted by the Communists in China in the Chinese Revolution / Civil War. Eight points of attention, three points of discipline: won the hearts and minds of the people.

	05-08-2004 14:49									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Because we haven't invaded another country and systematically carried out large scale murders.

Does that have to be the same country to win the prize?

quote: Tibet is a complex issue, but evidence exists that it was never an indepedent country. For example, the selection of a new lama would need to be ultimately approved by Beijing, even way back during the Qing dynasty. As for people who were wrongfully accused or killed during the Cultural Revolution, say, their honour was restored and (some) compensation was made.

re victims of Cultural Revolution, let me and the world know when that happens. If China can admit mistakes, that would increase the pressure on Japan. Our dead vets and their families would love to know, because one reason given to them for the denial is the culture (which Dashi seems to indicate is not just in Japan).

re Tibet. I guess it wasn't 'yours' when the PRC had to invade it, eh?

Oh, we can come up with al sorts of justifications for bad things over this side of the world too. Most recent was that parts of Poland rightfully belonged to Germany because *gasp* some German speaking people lived there. That started all sorts of ****.

	05-08-2004 14:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf By "early stages of the revolution", are you referring to the Cultural Revolution? There were very little civilian casualties comitted by the Communists in China in the Chinese Revolution / Civil War. Eight points of attention, three points of discipline: won the hearts and minds of the people.

Did it win the hearts and minds of the dead?

	05-08-2004 14:53									#58
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Canadians, and Brits, and Yanks, and Aussies, and Dutch, and Koreans, and Phillipinos, and... have reasons to not like Japanese behaviour during a certain period, and subsequent Japanese government attitudes towards the past as well. Do we gain anything by sitting in our respective holes and flinging dung at each other?

It's easy for some people to talk about forgiveness when they have never been victims of atrocities.

I've met Canadian war vets who have still not forgiven the Japanese, and some who have. One of the vets with a grudge was Leonard Birchall who spent years in a Japanese POW camp and was forced to work like a slave.

It is not our place to judge whether they should or should not have a grudge.

	05-08-2004 14:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, we can come up with al sorts of justifications for bad things over this side of the world too. Most recent was that parts of Poland rightfully belonged to Germany because *gasp* some German speaking people lived there. That started all sorts of ****.

Actually most recent was that Saddam was a terrorist threat. That started **** too, just not such a high intensity of ****.

I'm sure someone will be along to apologise soon. Oh look, here comes Senator Kerry!

	05-08-2004 14:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It's easy for some people to talk about forgiveness when they have never been victims of atrocities. I've met Canadian war vets who have still not forgiven the Japanese, and some who have. One of the vets with a grudge was Leonard Birchall who spent years in a Japanese POW camp and was forced to work like a slave. It is not our place to judge whether they should or should not have a grudge.

It is our place to judge whether our society should encourage hatred based on a grudge.