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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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Our society?
You can say all you want about China, but you have no idea what they went through, whether it be during the civil war, the KMT years, the Japanese invasion or the Mao years.
But if you had any sense, you would try to understand their anger rather than just condemning it from your nice safe home in Canada. Have you ever seen your family murdered by invaders. Have you ever seen your government arrest and kill your family?
I suspect the answer is no, and yet you have the arrogence to preach about how these people should behave and what they should feel.
I think that hating the Japanese for what happened 50 years ago is pointless, but I also understand why some, and I stress some, Chinese still hold a grudge.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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I knew it wouldn't take long for you to show your predictable prejudice against Eastern Canadians.
You're big on talking about how others should forgive and forget, but how many times have we heard you *****ing about the NEP and Easterners.
Clean up your own house before you start preaching to others.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
I don't understand hatred for hatred's sake at all. You are correct. |
A good start would to be to understand your own prejudices.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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Enough of your lies. If you are going to make an accusation, you better be able to provide proof which you know that you can't.
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Natalinasmpf
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quote:
Did it win the hearts and minds of the dead? |
No, but there were several revolutionS.
Not dead Nationalists. They deserve to die, serving the evil Chiang Kai-Shek. As for the civilians, before 1950, yes. There was mass support for the CCP then.
If you refer to latter revolutions; that's different. Completely different from what the eight points of attention and three points of discipline were about..
quote:
Do you mean to say that the Communist government did not cause the deaths of millions of Chinese, directly?
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Except for the military Nationalist enemy, the original Chinese Civil War (the modern one), the CCP did not cause mass civilian deaths.
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Snotty
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What do the French call the English channel?
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:34
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Back on topic ...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
Really? There are more than a billion Chinese, yet you know they all hate the Japanese? |
Originally posted by urban Ranger
mindseye's experience would be interesting. |
I'm sorry to say that my experience in Shanghai strongly parallel's DaShi's in Hangzhou, although not to the same degree. Hatred, or at least alleged hatred, of Japan is pretty commonplace, even among educated people.
I have lived here about 3.5 years and have now taught about 1,500 students from teens to senior corporate officers. About 1/3 of my students originate from other parts of the country. I would say that about 35% would attest to "hating Japan", another 35% ambivalent but suspicious, 15% openly admire it, the rest - no opinion. But this is in Shanghai. From what I've seen, the animosity is much stronger in the hinterlands, where less exposure to foreigners, lower education levels, and fewer sources of information provide fertile ground for prejudice.
An early classroom exchange clued me in to the situation:
Student: "I hate Japan!"
Me: "Why?"
Student: (pause) "I don't know."
I was reminded of that scary scene in 1984 where everyone is raging at the image of Emmanuel Goldstein during the daily Two Minute Hate, but where Winston Smith suspects that some are just going through the motions.
Of course, as others have already mentioned, the actions of the Japanese in China (especially during the notorious occupation of Nanjing) were cruel and brutal in the extreme, with much of the violence occurring on a very personal level (swords and penises). I have never been able to read Iris Chang's famous book on the topic (not available in Japan, btw) because the photos are so disturbing. Given this, it is not unexpected that some level of residual hate remains in the populace.
However, it's equally obvious to most (outside) observers that the Chinese gov't cynically manipulates the issue for all it's worth. Witness the actions of the state press after the recent "sex party" scandal in Zhuhai earlier this year. The state press widely promoted the absurd notion that the Japanese businessmen had deliberately organized their sex holiday around a particularly notorious date in Sino-Japanese history (no mention was made of the Chinese prostitutes, who presumably were also aware of the date's ominous significance). The press-fueled indignation seemed especially out of place given the otherwise casual Chinese attitude towards prostitution.
As DaShi noted, the relationship is more complex than the surface indicates. Many Chinese (usually young) love the trappings of Japanese pop culture (fashion, music, movies, toys, anime, manga, pc games, Hello Kitty, etc). Since the Chinese school system drums any form of creative thought out of all but the most determined, Chinese kids have to look somewhere for fashion and "hip-ness" indicators. Japan and South Korea fill the vacuum. There's even a pair of slang terms for Chinese who are Japanese- or Korean-wannabes (ha ri and ha hang).
Also, Japanese food is one of the only foreign cuisines that most Chinese would ever consider worth sampling (ironically, the other is ... American fast food  )
Should the topic come up in class, I usually mention the friendly and funny Japanese I have known (I don't mention the guy I once dated  ). I ask students questions like, what about the two times China tried to invade Japan, and why they hate people for the actions of their grandparents. My hope is that a few of the knee-jerks will come to regard the issue on somewhat more complex terms than "Japan = evil".
There are a relatively large number of Japanese in Shanghai. Of the half-dozen or so I have asked about it, they have said that they don't really experience any hatred directed at them personally, they have Chinese friends, and they feel basically comfortable in China. I had a Japanese executive in one of my English classes, he proved to be the most popular student (he was a real joker, and a genuinely nice man). The Chinese students loved him.
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DaShi
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The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:34
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Some very interesting points are being made. I'd still like to hear more about the Japanese side. How do the Japanese view the Chinese?
"The ball's in Japan's court. It's up to them to mend their ways."
This is one of the issues I tried to address. Yes, the Japanese have a lot to do on their end (Good point: "One thing the Japanese government can do is stop visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which enshrines 14 Class A war criminals."). However, China only aggrandizes the situation by encouraging hate. The main point of my first post was that the hate had become cultural. If this continues, there is nothing that the Japanese can do to make amends. In fact, it gives them an excuse not to because China would appear to be the 'bloodthirsty barbarians.'
"Well at least Taiwan didn't have the Great Leap Forward."
Nor the Cultural Revolution, which was far more barbaric and cruel.
"The major roadblock is that the government, even the education refuses to admit that the Japan of WWII was a monstrosity, refused to admit its war crimes...
I mean, hey, its okay to admit it; it means you recognise your mistake and that you have changed, all the more to respect you.
But the Japanese government seems to think otherwise.
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the current Japanese generation are actually snobbing some of the Chinese because of whats printed in the textbooks about the Chinese..."
China does the same thing. Should China expect Japan to do something that it won't?
"OK. But why keep the grudge going? That can't be good in a global economy, let alone a world of nuclear weapons."
Exactly, I think both countries would benefit from a peaceful Asia. If they want someone to hate, they can hate the Americans like everyone else. 
"Chinese culture is very reactionary."
I disagree. Reactionary movements have been supressed throughout China's history. None of the ruling powers have encouraged much reactionary behavior because it could lead to revolution. Because of it huge population, the governments of China have tried to encourage a submissive and inured culture. Confuscianism promotes obedience. Buddhism emphasizes complacent acceptance. Chinese culture is more laidback than say European, which I would consider to be much more reactionary.
"Adoring Mao? Mao is properly revered as the driving force behind the founding of the PRC."
Mao was a figure-head and much of the 'history' surrounding him has been relegated to myth and legend. Yes, he did rally the people, but he was not the competent hero that he is made out to be in China. Mao did not bring prosperity to China; Deng Xiaoping paved the way for that on which the people followed and did the work for. Mao did not defeat the Japanese; he wasn't anywhere near them at the time. It was the Russians and Americans who did.
"By 'early stages of the revolution', are you referring to the Cultural Revolution?
There were very little civilian casualties comitted by the Communists in China in the Chinese Revolution / Civil War. Eight points of attention, three points of discipline: won the hearts and minds of the people."
The Communist Revolution and the Cultural Revolution are two separate and very different events.
mindseye. Thanks for your perspective. I will try to take your stance if the issue comes up again in my classes next year. My response has usually been to ignore it and try to move on to what ever else we've been doing, which just leaves me annoyed at the end of the day.
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Apolyton Time is 00:34. |
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