06-08-2004 03:05									#91
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There you got the answer to the "I don't know" answer. You chinese students' English ability is perhaps a little better then you Chinese capability, but not too much better. Try explain why you are concerned about their attitude toward the Japanese in Chinese to them.

	06-08-2004 03:07									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Tibet is a complex issue, but evidence exists that it was never an indepedent country. For example, the selection of a new lama would need to be ultimately approved by Beijing, even way back during the Qing dynasty.

Im sure there are japanese who could make a case for the complexity of Manchu history, and Chinese undermining of their position in Manchuria. I presume the justification of Chinese hatred for Japan is not the legal questions concerning the start of the war, but the atrocities commited during it. Whatever the legal issues regarding Tibet, its hard to see that Tibetans arent entitled to an apology for treatment by China.

	06-08-2004 03:15									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake There you got the answer to the "I don't know" answer. You chinese students' English ability is perhaps a little better then you Chinese capability, but not too much better. Try explain why you are concerned about their attitude toward the Japanese in Chinese to them.

um, I wasn't the one who posted that. Also, my students usually tell me when they are incapable of expressing something properly in English, where I either coach them to try or let it pass.

	06-08-2004 03:26									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake I had to say that it might not be the right explanation that Chinese's hatrad toward Japanese is because of the government's manipulation. In fact some people are angry against the government, because the Chinese government has been rather soft on Japan, because it is largely dependent on Japan's economic aids (trades, capital investment, etc). The hatred runs much deeper than that.

We should hate the monglos for slaugther whole cities of Chinese, and the Manchus for enslaving the Han, the proper race of the middle kindom of earth. We should hate the British for the opium wars. We should hate the european powers, and united states, for interfering with Chinese civil wars. Death to vile imperialist imperial powers. (especially the greeks, who started westen civilization and is the cause of lots of ills of the earth)

There is alot more things to hate when one is willing to hold a gruge. It is also silly to extent a hate for people that are no longer alive to those that are living.

Than again, I'm probably influenced by mind altering biological weapons used on former Japanese colonies.

	06-08-2004 07:37									#95
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or you could be living up to your name.

	06-08-2004 09:44									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi um, I wasn't the one who posted that. Also, my students usually tell me when they are incapable of expressing something properly in English, where I either coach them to try or let it pass.

Oops, sorry. Do you know what "xiao mi hu" means?

	06-08-2004 10:43									#97
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quote: I disagree. Reactionary movements have been supressed throughout China's history. None of the ruling powers have encouraged much reactionary behavior because it could lead to revolution. Because of it huge population, the governments of China have tried to encourage a submissive and inured culture. Confuscianism promotes obedience. Buddhism emphasizes complacent acceptance. Chinese culture is more laidback than say European, which I would consider to be much more reactionary.

Do you actually know what reactionary means?

The fact that Chinese culture still sticks to the old conservative Confucianism, and doesn't have much preference philosophies like Socrate's,. shows how reactionary is.

quote: re·ac·tion·ar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ksh-nr) adj. Characterized by reaction, especially opposition to progress or liberalism; extremely conservative. n. pl. re·ac·tion·ar·ies An opponent of progress or liberalism; an extreme conservative. [Download or Buy Now] Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. reactionary \Re*ac"tion*a*ry\, a. Being, causing, or favoring reaction; as, reactionary movements. [Free Trial - Merriam-Webster Unabridged.] Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. reactionary \Re*ac"tion*a*ry\, n.; pl. Reactionaries. One who favors reaction, or seeks to undo political progress or revolution. [Free Trial - Merriam-Webster Unabridged.] Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. reactionary adj : extremely conservative [syn: reactionist, far-right] n : an extreme conservative; an opponent of progress or liberalism [syn: ultraconservative, extreme right-winger]

See? Reactionary culture tends to be against upheaval or progress of that culture....generally against revolution. Mao Zedong managed to make his revolution identify with old ideals, hence the support. Without it, it would have been much more harder.

Nationalists however, had much more radical ideas (for China), hence the lack of support for them.

Reactionary behaviour does not lead to revolution; it often is the opposite.

	06-08-2004 11:09									#98
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye I have lived here about 3.5 years and have now taught about 1,500 students from teens to senior corporate officers. About 1/3 of my students originate from other parts of the country. I would say that about 35% would attest to "hating Japan", another 35% ambivalent but suspicious, 15% openly admire it, the rest - no opinion. But this is in Shanghai. From what I've seen, the animosity is much stronger in the hinterlands, where less exposure to foreigners, lower education levels, and fewer sources of information provide fertile ground for prejudice.

That's much more believable than someone claiming that all Chinese hate the Japanese.

But all this says is that China is like any other country. There are always people who live on hate.

Many Japanese have been taught that they were the victims in World War Two and a small segment are virulently anti-American.

In Canada, there are French-Canadians who hate the anglos, although probably the majority do not. We have bigoted westerners who constantly complain about being oppressed by theiving Easterners, although the majority of Westerners are sane.

In the US, the actions of a dozen or so terrorist has resulted in many Americans hating or being suspicious of all Muslims, but again, the majority of Americans are probably not driven by hate.

As for the media and government, just as China creates the Japanese bogeyman, other governments have created their own imaginary evil.

But I also wonder about how the Chinese government would benefit from inflaming anti-Japanese sentiment. What does the Chinese government gain? There doesn't seem to be an obvious benefit, unlike say Bush drumming up anti-Muslim sentiments.

	06-08-2004 11:23									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi You should learn more about the Cultural Revolution.

quote: I know about it. I was there.

	07-08-2004 02:06									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake I had to say that it might not be the right explanation that Chinese's hatrad toward Japanese is because of the government's manipulation.

I never claimed gov't manipulation was the cause of the prejudice (although I think it contributes). What I wrote was that it was obvious the gov't manipulates the issue (and gave a recent example).

quote: It is almost definitely wrong if you assume the Chinese hates the Japanese for no reason.

No reason? I thought I gave a reason. As I wrote, "Given (Japanese WWII atrocities), it is not unexpected that some level of residual hate remains in the populace."

quote: but don't assume all Chinese are dumb asses who are simply covered by blind hatrad.

Let me assure you I do not assume all Chinese are "dumb asses".

The student I quoted wasn't dumb, he just couldn't explain we he hated Japan (in English or Chinese). I was illustrating the observation that both DaShi and I made, i.e. that some Chinese seem to hate Japan simply because other Chinese do. Since you are Chinese, I think maybe you should understand this phenomena of "going with the group" and very well.

quote: It is also possible that he just didn't want to tell you

That's a very good point, and could be true if this was just one isolated case. However, this was one of many exchanges I have had on the topic with friends and students. From my experience, most Chinese are not reluctant to explain why they hate Japanese, if they have a reason. However, some, like this particular student, seem to have no reason except that "everyone thinks this way".

quote: being you are a foreigner and having so little understanding toward the Chinese history and culture.

I think it is very unfortunate when Chinese assume that all foreigners "have so little understanding" of China's history and culture, even foreigners who have lived here for years, studied Chinese history, and speak Chinese.

	07-08-2004 02:15									#101
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: being you are a foreigner and having so little understanding toward the Chinese history and culture. I think it is very unfortunate when Chinese assume that all foreigners "have so little understanding" of China's history and culture, even foreigners who have lived here for years, studied Chinese history, and speak Chinese.

I said that it was a posibility. But I apologize for being narrow-minded. In fact you may be more knowlegable than myself in many aspects of Chinese history, because well, I'm kind of bad in that.

As for reasons of hating Japanese, again my experience is a little different from yours. The ones that I personally know that vocalize their hatrad toward Japan really have their reasons, and others just don't care that much. However, you are right that in places like a college, when young people are hot headed about something, a good portion of people will choose to go with the mass just to be safe. I'm not sure if this is specially true in China, or if it is a more general phenomenon, which fuels the destructional power of the collective conciousness.

	07-08-2004 02:34									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai But all this says is that China is like any other country. There are always people who live on hate.

Certainly true, but what struck DaShi and myself was the ubiquitousness and virility of the anti-Japanese hatred. We are not talking about a fringe group of extremist haters.

quote: Many Japanese have been taught that they were the victims in World War Two and a small segment are virulently anti-American. (emphasis added - mindseye)

If a third of Tokyo Japanese openly claimed to hate all Americans and another third were deeply suspicious of all things American, you would have a closer analogy. Again, it's the scale and strength which are striking.

quote: But I also wonder about how the Chinese government would benefit from inflaming anti-Japanese sentiment. What does the Chinese government gain? There doesn't seem to be an obvious benefit (...)

Certainly you must be aware that villifying a common external enemy is an ancient, tried and true tactic to unite a populace around its leadership and distract it from domestic problems.

	07-08-2004 02:40									#103
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Now that we talk about this, I think the common external enemy that Chinese government tries to portrait for its people is the US. And there are quite some anti-US sentiment in China too. Although that doesn't prevent people rushing to the US.

	07-08-2004 02:54									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake However, you are right that in places like a college, when young people are hot headed about something, a good portion of people will choose to go with the mass just to be safe. I'm not sure if this is specially true in China, or if it is a more general phenomenon, which fuels the destructional power of the collective conciousness.

I think your comments about the college environment are dead-on (in the East and West).

Going with the mass is certainly not a uniquely Chinese phenomenon, however I think it is more characteristic of Asian (or at least, Confucian-influenced) thinking than of western thought, where individual opinions and dissension are to some degree more strongly encouraged. Also westerners currently have the advantage of greater access to more information sources and more internationalized societies (China changing quickly in this, as in most, regards).

Lest anyone misunderstand, I'm not trying to draw crude steroetypes here, I'm talking about general tendencies. You can certainly find individualistic Chinese thinkers as well as plenty of western herd-thinkers.

Snowflake, do you live in the west? Your English is quite good.

	07-08-2004 03:04									#105
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I'm in the US right now. But ask any of the SMAC demogamers they laugh at my grammar mistakes and misspellings.

Btw I totally agree with your last post.

	07-08-2004 03:07									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake Now that we talk about this, I think the common external enemy that Chinese government tries to portrait for its people is the US. And there are quite some anti-US sentiment in China too. Although that doesn't prevent people rushing to the US.

I think Chinese attitudes towards the US are much more complex than the typical thinking about Japan. The attitude is more of a mixture of good and bad, maybe closer to "like the people and the culture, dislike the government".

Just look at how often you see Chinese wearing clothing displaying American (and British) flags. I don’t see many Chinese wearing clothing with Japanese flags on them.

	07-08-2004 03:44									#107
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But the clothing was probably made in China, so...

Seriously, the governments have a good arrangement with each other, and merely use rabble rousing hatred for their own purposes.

	07-08-2004 08:43									#108
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quote: Now that we talk about this, I think the common external enemy that Chinese government tries to portrait for its people is the US. And there are quite some anti-US sentiment in China too. Although that doesn't prevent people rushing to the US.

Not just for the Chinese people, the entire world. A justified enemy too, the way the US arrogantly flexes its military arm of Imperialism. Its not really a false portrayal, either.

	07-08-2004 09:39									#109
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye [q] Originally posted by Snowflake Just look at how often you see Chinese wearing clothing displaying American (and British) flags. I don’t see many Chinese wearing clothing with Japanese flags on them.

Very good point. The Japan hatred has deeper culture roots and the US hatred probably is more or less the hate of a homeless toward a millionaire.

	07-08-2004 10:00									#110
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quote: the hate of a homeless toward a millionaire.

I wouldn't say that...more of the hate of a customer service officer, and an extremely demanding and troublesome customer who makes scenes.

	07-08-2004 14:40									#111
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quote: Originally posted by MORON We should hate the monglos for slaugther whole cities of Chinese, and the Manchus for enslaving the Han, the proper race of the middle kindom of earth. We should hate the British for the opium wars. We should hate the european powers, and united states, for interfering with Chinese civil wars. Death to vile imperialist imperial powers. (especially the greeks, who started westen civilization and is the cause of lots of ills of the earth)

You got some pretty strange trolls.

However, just to point out some parallels - yes, we did hate the Mongols (even though they didn't really slaughter as badly as the Manchus). We did hate the Manchus. We did hate the Brits, and the European powers.

BUT - think of the difference in scale and time.

There were 20 million casualties in the War of Resistance Against Japan. Even if only 50% were dead there were 10 million, and that's more deaths than the Holocaust.

The Manchus conducted massacres in a couple of cities when they invaded. However, for one thing, it was hundreds of years ago. Secondly, they actually felt remose and tried to compensate. Then, I don't think they murdered that many people.

Same thing with the Mongols and everybody else.

	07-08-2004 14:50									#112
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Im sure there are japanese who could make a case for the complexity of Manchu history, and Chinese undermining of their position in Manchuria.

That's nice. Lets match documentary evidence

Manchuia was where the Manchus came from, and the Manchus incorporated their own land with the rest of China when they established the Qing dynasty. When they were overthrown in 1911, the RoC became the legal successor of Qing.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I presume the justification of Chinese hatred for Japan is not the legal questions concerning the start of the war, but the atrocities commited during it.

Well yes, mostly.

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Whatever the legal issues regarding Tibet, its hard to see that Tibetans arent entitled to an apology for treatment by China.

I don't think the Buddhists were/are mistreated in anyway, that Buddhism was/is not suppressed, and there were no ethnic cleansing and that sort of stuff.

	07-08-2004 14:52									#113
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye I think it is very unfortunate when Chinese assume that all foreigners "have so little understanding" of China's history and culture, even foreigners who have lived here for years, studied Chinese history, and speak Chinese.

Certainly, you have John King Fairbank and people like him. Though they are very much the exception.

	07-08-2004 14:59									#114
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye There are always people who live on hate.[/q]Certainly true, but what struck DaShi and myself was the ubiquitousness and virility of the anti-Japanese hatred.

I think that's largely caused by the close proximity in time and the presence of first hand accounts. IOW, there are still lots of people who suffered at the hands of the IJA are still alive and very much want to seek reparation from the Japanese government.

The way that the successive Japanese government (mostly LDP'ers) have been acting has greatly aggravating an existing wound. Things like denials, whitewashing of their history during this period, etc. The ongoing Diaoyu Islands dispute certainly doesn't help.

	07-08-2004 15:17									#115
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quote: Manchuia was where the Manchus came from, and the Manchus incorporated their own land with the rest of China when they established the Qing dynasty.

I believe the Qin and Han might have subjugated a significant portion of it. Manchu culture didn't emerge, I think, till very late, and when they were hungry, they pounced into the Central Plains....

HAIL! THE ZHONGGUO!

	07-08-2004 20:43									#116
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Just talked to a friend about China's 1:3 lost to Japan at the Asia Cup. It was said that there were "10 thousand undercovered police" in the game and the fans were not allowed to sing or display banners. Looks like the Chinese government was really trying to minimize potential violence so there wouldn't be any criticism toward China hosting the 2008 Olympic games.

	07-08-2004 20:50									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake It was said that there were "10 thousand undercovered police" in the game

Ah, that helps to explain why only 40 something thousand tickets were on sale when the full capacity was over 70 thousand.



A lot of football fans were disappointed when they couldn't buy tickets.

[/threadjack]

	07-08-2004 20:51									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf I believe the Qin and Han might have subjugated a significant portion of it.

Yeah, probably. Various earlier dynasties would have occupied parts of Manchuria.

	07-08-2004 21:31									#119
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quote: There were 20 million casualties in the War of Resistance Against Japan. Even if only 50% were dead there were 10 million, and that's more deaths than the Holocaust.

Most estimates I've seen have been closer to 20 million dead.

	07-08-2004 22:33									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do Jews hate Germany? It is such a long time ago. Most of these "kids" probably don't even understand ww2. Judging by what you said about their papers, they don't seem to have a full grasp of the situation. They simply are this way because of peer pressure and/or the school are propogating this hatred. perhaps if they had freedom of speech and press, and didn't have a communist goverment...

Jews don't hate Germany anymore. Germany has made a strong and clear message that it renounces its actions in World War II. A few do things like avoid buying German cars, but we've really buried the hatchet by now.

My mom is fairly unique in that she is a Jew who grew up in postwar East Asia. (Phillipines) So she has fair reason to dislike both. She's far more angry at Japan for its postwar actions.