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Jarouik
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Helsinki, Finland, EU
Dec 2000
time: 07:34
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I kinda have the same feeling about the most extreme forms of gay associationism - even though I am a member of the gay group at our university myself because there very evidently is still need for such a group. I can understand the need to group with others like you in a society where gays are generally still not equal to straight people, but as long as this tendency continues, gays will never be accepted in other communities.
I realize it is hard, but *in addition* to being active in gay groups, I think all lgbt people should be themselves in all parts of their lives as well, i.e. job, studies and hobbies. Of course, sexuality is not something that always comes as a subject of discussion, but when it does, at least I feel like I am making the world a little bit better by letting people know an ordinary guy like me can be gay. If it weren't that my boyfriend and I both happen to be active in our physics students' organization (and actually met there in the first place  ), people I study with might not realize there were gays in their department at all. I believe we have made many people more tolerant of gays by just being open about it.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Park Avenue
They separate themselves IMO. And then start to act differently from normal people. |
Another gross oversimplification from our fellow Apolytoner, PA.
First off, group separation based on sexual orientation resulted from several factors, among them which include:
gay militant extremist minority who are heterophobic (not that even all gay heterophobes separate themselves by living in a gay community),
majority of gays who hold moderate values, but still believe that they are safer in a gay community, but are still comfortable moving between the enclave and mainstream society while living in a gay community (whether it's true or not, it's what they believe) -- and this is obviously not to say that every gay who holds moderate values lives in a gay community but here, I'm talking about those that do
and then of course, there are homophobic straight people and the willfully ignorant straight people who insist on dividing human society by sexual orientation through anti-gay laws and anti-gay attitudes
It all comes down to alienation between straights and gays, and while homophobes and willfully ignorant are not the only people by themselves to contribute to this, they certainly are a major contributor.
And I'm sure what I posted still does not cover every sociological and psychological factor on separation of gays and straights but at least I made an effort to show the complexity of such phenemona (unlike you).
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:34
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quote:
To build a community like gays try to, they need to exclude and divide society. They don't help themselves in this way.
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That is generally the reaction of any minority community that feels it is under attack from the majority or elements of the majority, namely small/narrow minded bigots.
quote:
Because without "straight society", theirs wouldn't exist anyhow.
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You assume that segregation to be valid, and yet you attack gay people for creating it whereas in reality it does not exist... there are no exclusive gay ghettos since firstly homosexuality has always existed in humanity, there is no physically discernable pattern of difference, and there is (at least where I am) broad acceptance of gay people. There is no culture within the gay community of considering that they are better than heterosexuals and no desire to live apart from them.
quote:
They separate themselves IMO. And then start to act differently from normal people.
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They do not separate themselves except in some extreme cases as a reaction to hostility where certain conditions (related to the bigotry of those who do not accept them) apply. Acting differently? You would think that anyone who acts differently from a sociological norm is a valid target for persecution or sufferage?
quote:
It's not very scientific..
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As someone who has allegedly been educated to degree level *chuckles to self* in this field, you should know that it is not intended to be a scientific, quantifiable concept instead it relies solely upon subjective interpretation. You should well know that value (the variable at work in the hierachy of needs) is a function of supply and demand, and in the individual case it is highly variant anyway, so it is relative to one another. People will always strive for more than they currently have, climb the next level on that hierarchy. They will seek acceptance when they have safety and security and ultimately seek self-actualisation in whatever sense they intend. You would deny that on the basis of sexuality? How could or would you deny it upon any basis?
quote:
Basically a persecuted minority cant go around worrying (beyond whats necessary for survival) about what others think of it as a group
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While I generally agree with your point, it is not the fault of gay people that bigots do not accept them, or others who are different. You will note that even on this forum, (and mentioning no names) one that is anti-gay is seemingly against cultures other than that which he is used to and holds his own group in higher esteem than others for no apparent, discernable or logically consistent reason. No, it is the fault of the bigots for their bigotry, and people will always react to the attacks of bigots as long as they exist. Under attack, there is safety and acceptance in numbers, but the fact that they resort to that is a measure of the persecution, perceived (which is as bad for them as) - and actual.
The solution is to attack the bigots; refute, humiliate and ostracise them.
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Atahualpa
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Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
The problem here is it's not segregation -- it's no different from how there's a Chinatown in most cities, or a Little Italy...
The VAST majority of gays do not live in a community and "segregate" themselves exclusively. I don't think you understand what you're talking about, or you're intentionally twisting it...
I don't know of any gays who want to "segregate", but I do know that virtually every PERSON I know like to live in a neighborhood that they feel safe in, that they feel accepted in, and that they feel at home in.
For that reason, some people choose to live in a "gay district"/"gay village" which has many gay people. And what's wrong with that? They still have TONS of contact with the "straight community", they just choose to live around people like them. It's not a concept exclusive to gays, it's a fundamental human desire for most people. |
sorry possible, segregation, separation is not the same?
I think grouping with turning your "sensors" inward.
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05-08-2004 16:31
), theirs wouldn't exist anyhow.
common vocabulary 
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