05-08-2004 02:50									#1
	Gay segregation, community building & phobism Enter the AD-FREE zone

I am beginning to get more and more aware of a growing homosexual community. I am a bit alarmed and a bit scared too. I think mainly because I have absolutely no real life contact with anyone that is a gay.

Anyway I today stumbled upon something that is called Eurogames which is "The European Gay & Lesbian Sports Championships"

At first I really wondered: huh?? In what way is it necessary to have a sports championship that segregates people based on their sexual orientation?

Looking a bit deeper into this I came to read:

quote: The European Gay & Lesbian Sport Federation was founded in 1989. Its aims are: fight against discrimination in sport on grounds of sexual preference stimulate integration in sport and emancipation of lesbians and gays enable and support the coming out of gay and lesbian sports men and women exchange information and enable co-ordination between European sport groups and tournaments support the founding of new gay/lesbian/bisexual/straight/transgendered and mixed sport groups

Okay so it is about strengthening the homosexual community,.. and gay & lesbian sports (that sounds a bit strange though, since I never saw a connection between sports and sexual orientation), but everyone is welcomed.

No problem here, but I wonder if events such as this lead to more segragation instead of integration. Gays & Lesbians are probably among themselves during these games and I doubt that much contact is made with straight people.

Okay so much for the "surface".

I can understand homosexual people want to form a (strong) community while at the same time I am a bit afraid about what if it really becomes powerful and all. Reason: Lately the lead figure from the german FDP (Guido Westerwelle IIRC) party has "declared his gayness".

It makes me think a bit and wonder if suddenly even I as male would become a target for rape. It's probably ridiculous thinking, but well that's what has been floating in my mind. To support this a bit I experienced women are much more pro-gay than men. Maybe that's something got to do with this rape-fear. Another argument to support this is that I have absolutely no fear against lesbians. It's only gays that could possibly harm me. I think that's also a bit reflected in laws. In Austria for example Lesbians had it a bit easier than gays when it comes to having sex. But that is probably because women seem much more open to intimate actions. Still most of the laws are made by men though.

Can anybody understand these feelings?

I find it hard to talk with real people about homosexuality, since I really don't know what I should say or where I should start.
That said I was quite stunned some time ago when I heard that our very own Asher was a gay. I'd never expected that and always thought I knew his type of person (since I am studying computer science) and then *BOOM* I thought "can't be!", that doesn't fit into my categorization. Somehow it seemed that people can't just be categorized in homosexuals and heterosexuals and if you hear of someone who is gay just throw him in that category of "unknown, not much explored, seem to be acting strange (gay) - can be identified that way".

So what probably has been troubeling me lately is that I have to either explore the gay community more (which I hate to do, because it is so "on purpose" and is probably about to become a trend [I hate trends]) or I have to give up my categorization and judge everyone uniquely, however that would be a very exerting thing to do and in the end probably not possible since categorization is the way I have organized my mind (compare it to a neural net).

Some of my fears are also fed by a book called "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. It's a good science fiction novel in which it describes a possible change of earh's society that in the end we have all become gay (before all humanity consists of Adams and Eves sort of). I don't particularly like this sort of outcome (even though I should know that it's way beyond my lifespan).

Alltogether the segregation and community building within gays is also strengthening my fears, because obviously it is much more fearsome to interact with a whole group than a bunch of lousy connected individuals, which connects to why I started this thread here.
Anyway, If such a kind of interaction however proves to be positive than I guess this would work out positively for my attitude towards gays.

	05-08-2004 02:54									#2
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quote: I am beginning to get more and more aware of a growing homosexual community. I am a bit alarmed and a bit scared too. I think mainly because I have absolutely no real life contact with anyone that is a gay.

Are you a hermit or something?

	05-08-2004 03:00									#3
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are you closeted?

	05-08-2004 03:05									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: I am beginning to get more and more aware of a growing homosexual community. I am a bit alarmed and a bit scared too. I think mainly because I have absolutely no real life contact with anyone that is a gay. Are you a hermit or something?

no, I am computer science student

If you don't understand that categorization, I don't deal much with other people. It simply doesn't strike me very much talking with someone I don't know and none of my friends is a gay. Of course there is a gay group right in my university, but when I am not interested talking with "ordinary" people, why should I want to talk with gays? That would make them special, which doesn't really fit the equality requirement....

	05-08-2004 03:07									#5
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Congratulations Atahualpa, you've identified your prejudices. Now overcome them and become a better person...but also bear in mind, this comradeship between gays would be like the comradeship between the Austrian community in London, for example...it's certainly nothing to be feared and won't be taking over any time soon (Anschluss anyone? )

	05-08-2004 03:10									#6
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I too am wary of the strengthening bond in the gay community. Things such as the Euro-gay-sports, or the gay prides, were needed until recently, as the community struggled for recognition.

Now that anybody in the west is aware of the existence of the gay community, this attempt to strengthen the bonds goes directly against the aim of integration within the society. It's difficult to integrate in a society when your community looks more and more like a separate society. It also will only end up reinforcing the stereotypes among the heteros.

However, there is no reason to fear a society where everybody would be gay. That's because humankind has always known both heterosexuality and homosexuality, and because we simply are coded to reproduce

The main risk posed by the constitution of an increasingly separate gay community is not that it'll "take over the world" or anything like that. But it is the creation of a rift in society, with a high potential for hatred from both sides. The fear of the gays taking over the world is no different with the fear of Jews taking over the world: the belief than a strange and rather closed community is some gigantic conspiracy, when it's not.

	05-08-2004 03:24									#7
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quote: but also bear in mind, this comradeship between gays would be like the comradeship between the Austrian community in London, for example...it's certainly nothing to be feared

Well what do you do when your brain tells you that, but your heart doubts it.

quote: Now that anybody in the west is aware of the existence of the gay community, this attempt to strengthen the bonds goes directly against the aim of integration within the society. It's difficult to integrate in a society when your community looks more and more like a separate society. It also will only end up reinforcing the stereotypes among the heteros.

Exactly, though I think the effect can be positive when these communities go into public.
I think probably you'd have to meet them as member of the heterosexual community. The problem here I have is that I never really identified with a heterosexual community, because actually there didn't really exist something else (until recently).

Probably another reason that is disturbing me, the not-choice of which community to belong to, even if I did not want to "join" one (identify with one).

quote: However, there is no reason to fear a society where everybody would be gay. That's because humankind has always known both heterosexuality and homosexuality, and because we simply are coded to reproduce

Yes of course.....
I am talking just about bits and little pieces. I am no mindless freak who _believes_ into an all-gay world. I just wanted to express such a thought exists.

	05-08-2004 03:35									#8
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In The Forever War, the populace is engineered to be homosexuals for the purpose of population control. Just my [unasked for and not particularly relevant] 2 cents. Great book, though.

	05-08-2004 03:50									#9
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Ah you read it too

Yes that was the reason, though I always found that a bit odd, since several gay couples like to have kids as well. I am pretty sure if he got more into his population evolution theory he would have sucked up the whole book.

	05-08-2004 03:57									#10
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What do you mean by growing gay community? Is there an actual research done that proves gay community is getting bigger and bigger, or is it just that they feel more comfortable not hiding being gay?

And you know gay people. You just don't know they're gay! Hey, I study computer science too, and I PERSONALLY know let's see.. 3 gay guys, and they have gay friends and all that, so you have no excuse in the studying part. Granted, none of da gays I know don't study where I do, but the point remains.

Why are you so concerned about gays.. you don't have to have sex with them if you don't want to. Hey, think about this... one gay guy usually hooks up with another gay guy, right? So that's two guys out of the chick markets, meaning you have better chances scoring with girls. I'd be happy if most men were gay. I'd be getting so much.

And I know these are just stereotypes, but think about it, your hetero life is more secure the more gay men there are. I have never seen a gay man that threatens me verbally, physically, or by trying to take something that is mine, or what I'm trying to get myself. If a gay man says you look good, you shouldn't feel threatened. HE won't rape you. Instead, there's a high chance it's actually true then and girls like that too then. It's as good of a compliment than from girl when you really think about it. Have you ever heard of gay mafia, or gay community that beats up people, or robs banks? I haven't.. I'd say more gay men there are, more secure the community is. Gay men hardly are the peak of crime waves. Hey I don't know, I might be stereotyping, but at least I'm not doing it negatively and I feel this is correct, so.. and if you say gays make the communities and society twisted, not relating with gay people, well it might feel twisted to some people, but isn't the society pretty much twisted already? If the new twist would mean gay people, and the dominance of current twisted things diminishing.. hey I take the gay twist to the society any day. At least the jerks that currentyl are 'the plague', they're worse.

Last edited by Pekka on 05-08-2004 at 04:02

	05-08-2004 04:16									#11
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quote: What do you mean by growing gay community? Is there an actual research done that proves gay community is getting bigger and bigger, or is it just that they feel more comfortable not hiding being gay?

I feel that more and more people tell that they are gay and have no problem with it anymore. They are gathering and talking about it openly.

quote: And you know gay people. You just don't know they're gay! Hey, I study computer science too, and I PERSONALLY know let's see.. 3 gay guys, and they have gay friends and all that, so you have no excuse in the studying part. Granted, none of da gays I know don't study where I do, but the point remains.

We are backwards then. I am absolutely sure I don't have gay friends.

quote: Why are you so concerned about gays.. you don't have to have sex with them if you don't want to. Hey, think about this... one gay guy usually hooks up with another gay guy, right? So that's two guys out of the chick markets, meaning you have better chances scoring with girls. I'd be happy if most men were gay. I'd be getting so much.

Well if you have read it, I actually fear that they might be out of the chick market, but into the Atahualpa market, which I wouldn't really like to see

	05-08-2004 04:43									#12
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The reason gays stick together/form communities is because:
1) It's easier to meet a potential mate when the odds of the person swinging your way is 20:1 rather than 1:20
2) It's easier to identify with and befriend someone who's been through so much that's so similar to you
3) Not having to deal with any prejudice or harassment

For the record, I, too, am in computer science, and I know MANY gay guys.

	05-08-2004 05:02									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa We are backwards then. I am absolutely sure I don't have gay friends.

You were ABSOLUTELY sure someone like Asher wouldn't be gay. See how far that got you?

Let's be honest, here: despite huge strides, gays are still very much second-class citizens in even most of the Western world. While urban areas are often islands of total tolerance, large swaths of the rest of the world are not. Gay bashings still account for an inordinate number of hate crimes committed each year in the U.S. and Europe.

The gay community still serves an important purpose, as Asher notes. Since, as it stands, gays overwhelmingly still must work and interact with heterosexuals on a daily basis, I see little reason for alarm at the moment. I've never met a single gay who abhorred straights as a rule and sought an exclusively gay world (though perhaps a few do exist).

quote: Well what do you do when your brain tells you that, but your heart doubts it.

Find some gay people and become comfortable around them. I've seen this attitude before, and it's simply one of fear of the unknown. You haven't had any known encounters with gays, so you are weirded out by something that yous view as very alien. Once you actually get to know some gays as people, you'll find the fundamental truth: we're all human beings.

	05-08-2004 05:18									#14
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quote: That said I was quite stunned some time ago when I heard that our very own Asher was a gay.

For what it's worth, no one has EVER guessed me to be "a gay" before in my life. Everyone is pretty-well stunned when I come out to them.

That's why you probably know more gay people than you know, there's tons out there like me. Many choose to just stay closeted to most people.

For example, most people at school don't know I'm gay. I'm not the type to flaunt it...

The stereotype doesn't hold very well, either. Just listing off what the gay guys I hang out with most do: computer science, computer engineering, honours chemical engineering, economics, architecture, business studies, MBA, and bio-chem.

I don't know a single person who does something "gay" like interior design...though architecture can be pretty "gay" I guess.

	05-08-2004 05:22									#15
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shocking admission:

I've never known anyone who was openly gay. It's just not a big thing in my town. I have met openly gay people of course. It's kind of hard not meeting them when you have been inside gay bars.

	05-08-2004 12:03									#16
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quote: For the record, I, too, am in computer science, and I know MANY gay guys.

Well, you'd be pretty poor if you don't

quote: You were ABSOLUTELY sure someone like Asher wouldn't be gay. See how far that got you?

Yeah, but then I don't know Asher that much that I know my friends. I just believed I could categorize him on what he posts, which went a bit wrong.
Then of course you could say the same thing about my friends... ****

quote: Let's be honest, here: despite huge strides, gays are still very much second-class citizens in even most of the Western world. While urban areas are often islands of total tolerance, large swaths of the rest of the world are not. Gay bashings still account for an inordinate number of hate crimes committed each year in the U.S. and Europe.

hmm, well I can't say that really. The german political landscape emerged some gay people already and AFAIK none of them did it hurt. Berlin's mayor for example:

quote: Before his spectacular coming out -- reportedly to head off tabloid newspaper attempts to discredit him -- Wowereit had few claims to fame either inside or outside the SPD. But his coming out made him instantly recognizable and madly popular in the city.

http://www.datalounge.com/dataloung...ml?record=17363

Westerwelle has just been the biggest political figure yet.

But of course gay bashing... hmm well it's difficult. I think I have pretty much stopped using the word gay as a negative attribute. Though every now and then you'd still hear it.

quote: Find some gay people and become comfortable around them. I've seen this attitude before, and it's simply one of fear of the unknown. You haven't had any known encounters with gays, so you are weirded out by something that yous view as very alien. Once you actually get to know some gays as people, you'll find the fundamental truth: we're all human beings.

Well now that I think of it, I had encountered a gay already. But..., he had just betrayed his boyfriend and his mate was still lying in his bed. Not a really good encounter
It just made me come to the believe that this "sexual openness" probably leads to more open relationships in general, but that doesn't really hold as I found out later and so far the empirism that this is based on lacks the ground a bit.

So of course you are right, I will have to meet some gay people to sort things out. I knew that when I was writing the thread starter, but I thought I post it anyway, since it probably provides a good ground for discussion and after all I wanted to meet gays and here on the board are several that would respond.

quote: For what it's worth, no one has EVER guessed me to be "a gay" before in my life. Everyone is pretty-well stunned when I come out to them. That's why you probably know more gay people than you know, there's tons out there like me. Many choose to just stay closeted to most people.

I think that's because you show a certain kind of aggression sometimes that I'd never think gays would have. Another prejudice that fell.

quote: The stereotype doesn't hold very well, either.

Yes that's what I had to learn over the last half year or so.


So still what annoys me a bit now is that I get categorized as/called "straight". I don't really feel straight, I don't identify with straight livestyle (which is what?).
I want to say that probably the whole gay comming out will follow an identity crisis of heterosexual people. Because I get (or could get) called straight by a growing number of people, yet I don't know what being straight is about. I don't felt particular well on the eurogames page reading about straights and recognizing that'd mean me.
And probably that is why the gay community that we know nowadays was created in the first place.
Any thoughts?

edit: qoute

	05-08-2004 12:22									#17
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quote: While urban areas are often islands of total tolerance, large swaths of the rest of the world are not.

bah... most urban italians, irish, puerto ricans, and blacks are no friends of homosexuality... maybe the gentrifying whites are but not the rest

	05-08-2004 12:26									#18
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I remember this mad woman called Firestone (yeah, that was her name) who thought IIRC that Australia should be turned into a lesbian only colony where women could engage in "polymorphous perversity".

The moral of this story is that there's always going to be some people out of any minority who will support some form of radical segregationist chauvinism. It's a bit like those deaf people who think that there's something wrong with people who can hear and think that looking for a cure for deafness is evil.

quote: Find some gay people and become comfortable around them.

Isn't that a bit gross? It's like making a point of hanging around black people to prove you aren't racist, when doing this is a sign of a major racist hang up. I don't think I'd like the idea of someone trying to be a friend just to make themselves feel less bad.

	05-08-2004 12:35									#19
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quote: Isn't that a bit gross? It's like making a point of hanging around black people to prove you aren't racist, when doing this is a sign of a major racist hang up. I don't think I'd like the idea of someone trying to be a friend just to make themselves feel less bad.

Good point! That's why I expressed this "on purpose" feeling that I would have when I'd do that.
But on the other hand, I'd not make contact to feel less bad, but to get an opinion about a group of people that is not completely made up.

	05-08-2004 12:44									#20
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quote: 1) It's easier to meet a potential mate when the odds of the person swinging your way is 20:1 rather than 1:20

It surprised me that it took this long for someone to bring this up. A major reason people join clubs is to find people to ****, this applies to all kinds of people.

	05-08-2004 12:47									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Once you actually get to know some gays as people, you'll find the fundamental truth: we're all human beings.

Something so simple, yet so difficult for some people to fully embrace this fundamental concept.

	05-08-2004 12:56									#22
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I don't know if you have to do anything. I decided long ago that I simply didn't give a toss about homosexuality. If someone tells me that they are gay, I usually say "So what? I don't care." or "as long as you aren't a Jehovah's Witness."

	05-08-2004 13:17									#23
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Yes Agathon that was my original plan as well. But it doesn't always work. You cannot just shrug it off so easily. What if one of your friends would come out as gay? Wouldn't that disrupt your knowledge about the world a bit?
Or can you really put aside sexual preference as a whole and not let it influence your behavior at all. I probably cannot, since there is a picture of "a gay" in my mind that I will try to project onto homosexuals when I hear about them. I mean that's probably what everyone will do. Don't we all think in categories?

	05-08-2004 13:18									#24
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I disagree with Agathon on this one. If an acquaintance gets out of the closet, it'll be news for me. Just the same as if the same acquaintance just got its driver licence, got married, got a disease, got a degree, or whatever. Nothing to brag about, but a news worth caring for a person worth caring.

	05-08-2004 13:20									#25
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I was thinking more of people who you meet for the first time and who make a point of telling you they're gay.

	05-08-2004 13:22									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Something so simple, yet so difficult for some people to fully embrace this fundamental concept.

Coming back to this rape fear thing. Sure everyone is a human being, but some are more dangerous to me than others.
If you look at women the rape-fear is quite strong with them and it happens often enough to justify it.
That's why it's just the very very basic (theoretic) of a fear that I feel, but if I listen closely it is there. Nobody can explain that?

	05-08-2004 13:28									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I was thinking more of people who you meet for the first time and who make a point of telling you they're gay.

I don't think that happens all too often. As Spiffor mentioned it, I hate people bragging about something wether its being gay or something else so if some of them unknown gays would come up and tell you they are gay I would shrug as well. But I think this view has not much to do with reality. Take Asher as example:

quote: Originally posted by Asher For example, most people at school don't know I'm gay. I'm not the type to flaunt it...

Other, public people like politicians, also don't come out in such a way. Westerwelle for example showed up at a party with his boyfriend. He didn't make much fuss about it and it seemed to be he was thinking it was normal and okay. I think he did it right that way. Hardly anyone likes when people brag.

	05-08-2004 15:35									#28
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For the record, I've never personally known anyone who was openly homosexual. However, since several percent of the population is supposed to me homosexual, it seems reasonable to assume I've known several closeted ones, or ones who I simply never ended up with in a situation where their sexual orientation was made clear.

I do not particularly fear gay men. This is probably related to the prejudice that gays are not "real men", and thus unlikely to beat people up.

I'm taken for a homosexual with some frequency online, and occasionally in real life. The later might be because I have less aversion to male-male body contact than most men from Northern Europe*, but I am at a loss to understand the former.

* I actually kissed a guy on a party a while ago. Someone was going to make a photo, and he suddenly turned as to kiss me. I obliged him, which he had clearly not expected. His girlfriend threatened to kill me should I do it again.

Last edited by Last Conformist on 05-08-2004 at 16:02

	05-08-2004 15:54									#29
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To build a community like gays try to, they need to exclude and divide society. They don't help themselves in this way.

	05-08-2004 16:27									#30
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they only exclude themselves from society and what you mean with divide is probably divide between them and "straights" so that's just a different word for exclude.

The reason for all that I can understand. Long enough it was not tolerated. Why should they stay with a society that generally doesn't want them?