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livid imp
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Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by girlfight_club
Reposted from Sky Captain and...
I think when it comes to faction balance, there are only so many that can fit all the parameters of:
a) realism of society concept
b) current build of the game
c) balance with existing official factions
d) balance with best current, standard play strategies
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I agree, there are only so many that fit this profile, but I believe it is more than fourteen factions. All the basic faction templates have been done, but there is room for more hybrid factions (hybrid in design, not as in momentum/hybrid/builder).
quote:
Originally posted by girlfight_club
Most of the factions at networknode.org were originally designed in sets of seven; now they're all bunched on a list. I think sets of 7 factions can be well-balanced with each other |
I understand what you are saying. That as long as all seven factions are balanced with each other, then it is fair.....which is true, it is fair to the players involved. But it is still not balanced within the game. I am sure you would agree that having seven factions all with a +10 to all stats would be fair, but would surely break the game as designed. Balance is still, and will always be, the holy grail of the mod/map designer.
quote:
Originally posted by girlfight_club
even if they would be too weak or too strong when played against official factions. I'm pretty sure the designers on SMAX had this dilemma.
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Actually the SMAX factions are not as unbalanced as they first appear (with the posible exception of Cult of Planet). Pit any of the SMAX factions with Uni, Morgan, or Hive, and you still have a balanced game. Sure, maybe the Spartans would be crushed under the industrial weight of the Drones. But you have to go to these polar opposites to find imbalance.
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girlfight_club
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on an alternate Chiron
Feb 2004
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
I agree, there are only so many that fit this profile, but I believe it is more than fourteen factions. All the basic faction templates have been done, but there is room for more hybrid factions...
Actually the SMAX factions are not as unbalanced as they first appear (with the posible exception of Cult of Planet). Pit any of the SMAX factions with Uni, Morgan, or Hive, and you still have a balanced game. Sure, maybe the Spartans would be crushed under the industrial weight of the Drones. But you have to go to these polar opposites to find imbalance. |
Uh... you seem to contradict your own thought that all 14 official factions are balanced. Surely if any two are obviously unbalanced, they're not all... um, balanced.
quote:
I am sure you would agree that having seven factions all with a +10 to all stats would be fair, but would surely break the game as designed. Balance is still, and will always be, the holy grail of the mod/map designer. |
Oh, +10,  Silly!
I'm thinking about seven equal factions that are more likely to be slightly weaker than original factions, but equal to one another.
This provides even greater challenge than a more difficult setting, as the experienced player wrestles with new challenges. (The game has a greater shot at breaking the player-- now that's interesting!)
As a matter of fact, I've been tweaking on this concept for quite awhile on SP-- it's this Toliman business I've been on about.
I'm not a big map tweaker-- though I applaud the practice-- since I feel that landing in a s----y location is what alien exploration is all about. But of course, in MP a balanced map and starting locations are a must.
quote:
I understand what you are saying. That as long as all seven factions are balanced with each other, then it is fair.....which is true, it is fair to the players involved. But it is still not balanced within the game. |
Well, I have to refer back to me list:
a) realism of society concept
b) current build of the game
c) balance with existing official factions
d) balance with best current, standard play strategies
By your own suggestion, even the official 14 don't meet all these requirements.
The only solid solution is a new build of the game; one that has an extensive preferences menu to let hardcore players twiddle hundreds of variables and keep us out of trouble until Miriam is born.
Alert Natalinasmpf!
GFC
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Quezacotl06
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I only think u can count the original 7, because the aliens are too powerful on their own.
+3Police, +3Probe, +3Planet, +3Support, +2Morale, +2Growth, +4Effic in a set of 7 would make for the most balenced game, wouldn't it?
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Kirov
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Warsaw, Poland
Sep 2002
time: 06:33
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Well, SMAC factions have their ideology in a wide sense of this word; you could imagine a political party out of each of them; and just think about a party whose main programme is to improve intelligence forces...
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Cataphract887
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Are you suggesting that the SMAX factions have no ideologies? Of course they have ideologies. As a matter of fact, I was very happy to see the Drone's and Caretaker's socialistic ideology rather than the Yang police state ideology. |
but the SMAC civs cover 7 different very distinc things,and contrasted with each other.the SMAX factions seem less main stream and more specialized.
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Quezacotl06
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Here's one I came up with a few days ago. Has really cool names.
The Mindfields
Agenda: Mental Monoism, group sentience
Techs: Social Psych, Progenitor Psych
+2 Research {Research abilities enhanced by group sentience}
+1 Probe {Experience with neuro-kinetics and mind-control}
-1 Morale {Prefer non-violent methods of control}
-1 Police {Citizenry paranoid about government repression}
Immune to Penalties of Thought Control Society: {Expertise in mind-control tactics}
May not use POLICE STATE politics
Last edited by Quezacotl06 on 27-11-2004 at 06:20
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livid imp
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Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:33
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Noting your sarcasm Natalinasmpf.
The Spartans represent the American Survivalist Movement. More commonly known as "those gun nuts". Survivalists by nature are anarchists. They just don't realize it because most folks think anarchists are deranged post-apocalyptic punk rockers you see in Sci-Fi B-movies. Look at the "Anarchists" at Networknode.org. the image used the represent them is a guy dressed like a gutter-punk.
Anarchy is a legitimate, yet troubled governmental style. Survivalists are anarchists, Libertarians are anarchists, hackers are anarchists, there are even environmental anarchists if you can believe that. If you believe that the individual man can manage himself and the world around him better than some large bureaucracy, then you are more anarchist than you realize too.
/soapbox off
The Spartans at best could be considered a Confederacy or at worst a Dictatorship, but those distinctions are made in the SE box.
Last edited by livid imp on 30-11-2004 at 23:30
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girlfight_club
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on an alternate Chiron
Feb 2004
time: 05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
But come on, just how realistic is a government based off of Academia or Conservationism? In 10,000 years of modern man roaming the earth, we have never had a government based on either of these ideals. To that extent we have never had a true Communistic government. |
Ah, but SMAC isn't about roaming the Earth, is it? On Earth, it's been either militaries or religions that drive population movement. On Earth, you don't have to carry your own air and water around, and almost wherever you might go-- people are already there.
But in space colonization, you must, by definition, have the brightest scientific minds along, and if they decide to lead, civilization can take bold approaches that were impossible on Earth.
Planet is a vast unwritten canvas. You can shape it to your philosophy, or die trying.
Sheesh, isn't that why we play it??
GFC
PS- All the factions in Alpha Centauri are de facto dictatorships, since the same immortal person remains in charge of each, throughout. Only their bureaucracies might show some semblance of "democracy" from time to time...
PPS- Actually, that would be a good upgrade for a SMAC II: changable leaders...
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livid imp
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Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by girlfight_club
Ah, but SMAC isn't about roaming the Earth, is it? On Earth, it's been either militaries or religions that drive population movement. On Earth, you don't have to carry your own air and water around, and almost wherever you might go-- people are already there. |
Of course not, my point was that you can not discount a splinter ideaology just because there is no precedent for it. Especially when some of the "main" ideaologies have no precedent. In other words, Angel ideaology is the same as Spartan ideaology with different methods to accomplish it.
quote:
Originally posted by girlfight_club
But in space colonization, you must, by definition, have the brightest scientific minds along, and if they decide to lead, civilization can take bold approaches that were impossible on Earth.
Planet is a vast unwritten canvas. You can shape it to your philosophy, or die trying.
Sheesh, isn't that why we play it?? |
Don't get me wrong. I fully support a government that values both Academia and Conservationism. I feel if the governement put emphasis on these ideals the world would be a much better place. Especially when the US is teetering toward a Fundy/FM/Power style SE. The US only gets involved in wars which will soildify our economic strangle hold on the world. You get to the top in this country by being the biggest cut-throat pr!ck, that rips the most people off. I want a US where being intelligent and efficient is the most valuable personal traits.
quote:
Originally posted by girlfight_club
PS- All the factions in Alpha Centauri are de facto dictatorships, since the same immortal person remains in charge of each, throughout. Only their bureaucracies might show some semblance of "democracy" from time to time...
PPS- Actually, that would be a good upgrade for a SMAC II: changable leaders... |
Couldn't agree more. What I would like to see in the next incarnation is a internal political system in each faction. Where a presidental type election is held every say 20 years. Each candidate would have slightly different SE effects (depending on the policies). Then anyone could then attempt to effect the election through political gimmicks and/or outright bribes. You could then try to get elected the canidate you want and your opponets can try to covertly stick you with a sh!tty President.
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Ghidorah
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowKat
True, but keep in mind that IndAuto (assuming you're got your facts straight; I've no way to check them atm) is a little ways up the chart. I'm not sure you could get it by 2150 unless you were fast-tracking anyway. |
According to my SMAX chart, it's Planetary Economics and Frictionless Surfaces. As for IndAuto, just about 90% of people beeline straight for it to get it well before 2150.
And for pure builders, Planetary Eco (energy restrictions and treefarms!) is the next Holy Grail, and it's not a hugely long trek to get there either. If a faction's suddenly getting treefarms AND quantum reactors within two techs, that's gonna be one scary faction. Especially when they've just had mineral restrictions lifted too.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowKat
True, but keep in mind that IndAuto (assuming you're got your facts straight; I've no way to check them atm) is a little ways up the chart. I'm not sure you could get it by 2150 unless you were fast-tracking anyway. |
Many players will have ind auto betweeb 20-30years faster than that but I don't believe ind auto is the immediate prereq for quantuum power
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24-09-2004 13:59
The design (for as ugly as it appears) was brilliant.
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