06-08-2004 04:29									#1
	Realistic Balanced Custom Factions..... Enter the AD-FREE zone

Where the hell are they all? I went over to Network Node and found one or two decent factions. All the rest are either horribly imbalanced or are themed (Star Wars, Star Trek, Pokemon, etc.) or both. There are almost no factions that fit in with the SMAC/X storylines or are some insecure kid's mental jerk-off uber faction. Sad. It seems like all anyone was concerned with were fancy new base graphics etc. I want some factions balanced enough you might think they were from Fraxis themselves. Another thing is the majority of bonus/penalties don't even make sense in context to the faction concept.

Anyway, enough b!tching. Does anyone know of any balanced, contextual factions that would logically fit in with the SMAC/X story? Graphics are not an issue.

And I hate when people b!tch about things then don't offer any solutions, so I formulated a faction of my own to demonstrate what I am looking for. Let me hear your opinions of this faction. Too easy, too harsh, don't understand something about them? Let me know, I'd like to sit down and create a few new factions that could fit right in with the original SMAC/X factions, if I can't find any out in the World Wide Wack.

This faction is a Planet born mafia, growing from the inside of all factions. Slowly, quietly taking them over one by one:

The Syndicate Underground

LEADER: {Boss 'S' }
BACKGROUND: {Unknown}
AGENDA: {Criminal Empire}
TECH: {None}

IMMUNITY POLICE: {No police, just street thugs, but troublemakers still have a habit of disappearing anyway}
-1 GROWTH: {Brutal lifestyles kills off many before breeding}
-1 RESEARCH: {Education is not highly valued in a criminal lifestyle}
-2 MORALE: {Armies consist of mercenaries and conscripts}
+1 PROBE: {Exclusive crime family inner circle}
+1 Commerce: {Black market activities}
10% Energy Interest: {Loan Sharking} edit: Upon further play testing, I changed this to 5%, and it may come down further.
Free Rec Commons: {Emphasis on keeping the folks on the street happy}
30% More votes for governor {Corruption and bribery}
Start with 50 EC
Start with a Probe Team

Priority: Wealth {Criminals seeking the easy life}
Aversion: Democracy {Crime families are inherently dictatorships}
Interested in Wealth
Will use force: No {War is too overt a method of acquisition}

update: I have playtested this faction a bit and aside from the commerce income being too high the faction has worked out well, I have had a good time with it.

Last edited by livid imp on 23-09-2004 at 20:56

	06-08-2004 06:36									#2
	Got spare money?

Hmm, No demo, and a growth penalty. These guys can't pop boom at all until future society.

-2 inherent morale is a bad thing, wealth just makes it worse .

as for their benefits: +1 probe,+1 commerce,+10% interest on loans,30% more votes,40 extra ecs and a probe team. These are all nice, but do not compare with the penalties.

The Free Rec Commons thing is very very nice though, it might offset 1 of the horrendous penalties, but not both.

The immunity to police is wierd, on the one hand it means 1 police unit which is interesting, on the other it means that you can run fm and go to war, but with very very green troops.


I say pull the morale hit,and maybe even give them impunity or immunity to morale hits.

	06-08-2004 11:15									#3
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You realise you can only have eight options at most for a faction right?

-1 Growth: Generally, realistic.

+1 probe: Gangs suspicious and resistant to infiltration, realistic, also

Why the morale penalty? Generally, being criminals, they should be more prepared for fighting, then say, your naive 15 year old draftee.

Conscripts and mercenaries can be crack troops, too. If you train them well.

Research penalty: Generally, being a criminal or not does not affect research. You had Mad Scientists working for them, and punks discouraging it. It should be neutral: don't include it.

Recreation Commons free? Wha? Why the emphasis? Isn't on crime? Generally, your faction, should receive an extra drone every six citizens due to the ruthless crime, however, it should gain +1 police from the tough internal regulation. Keep the immunity to police. Generally, the tough free market and ruthless selfishness is typical of crime, but immune to the police effects.

Given their suspicion in the elections, any corruption in the elections would be neutralised. War? Surely they would use war...they will fight openly with force if they must.

	06-08-2004 18:15									#4
	Re: Realistic Balanced Custom Factions..... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by livid imp IMMUNITY POLICE: {No police, just street thugs, but troublemakers still have a habit of disappearing anyway}

Nice, as this allows useful garrisons in all cities, in all conditions.

quote: -1 GROWTH: {Brutal lifestyles kills off many before breeding}

This penalty makes Planned a poorer choice, as pop booming is squelched. Free Market, because of the immunity to Police, becomes pretty nice.

quote: -1 RESEARCH: {Education is not highly valued in a criminal lifestyle}

A modest penalty, as a negative factional research rating increases tech costs.

quote: -2 MORALE: {Armies consist of mercenaries and conscripts}

Minor, my fresh troops are almost always very green anyway. Win with numbers, or superior technology.
I suppose this closes the door on early rover rushes, though.

quote: +1 PROBE: {Exclusive crime family inner circle}

A minor boon, though since Fundamentalism becomes more appealing with the uselessness of Police State (impunity police + FM) and the impossibility of Democracy, this could actually be somewhat nice, allowing +3.

quote: +1 Commerce: {Black market activities}

Another minor boon

quote: 10% Energy Interest: {Loan Sharking}

HUGE! You're on the fast track to cornering the global energy market with this! If you sit on your money, spending no more than you receive directly from cities, you double your money approximately every seven years! Early on, before there's anything to hurry, you'll build up a very nice pile of energy, enough to seize a SP with no trouble.

quote: Free Rec Commons: {Emphasis on keeping the folks on the street happy}

EVEN HUGER! You get to ICS without ANY worries, especially with the guarantee of being able to use police. Size 3 cities with NO drone problems with almost no effort! Yang should tremble! Since you'll have so much energy, just try to get the PTS, to make up for a deficiency of growth. Get it, and you win, unless someone's already shoving impact rifles down your throat. Miss it, and you can still do fine.

quote: 30% More votes for governor {Corruption and bribery}

Helpful, as this makes another route to victory more plausible.

quote: Start with 50 EC

Nice, but with the interest this becomes very nice. If you don't spend it too quickly, you'll have ~200 by 2114, and ~800 by 2128. Secret projects don't tend to get finished that soon, but you could buy one outright (after the first 4 rows), assuming you have the tech.

quote: Start with a Probe Team

Nice, as this allows early scouting and infiltration. This can also offset the -research.

quote: Priority: Wealth {Criminals seeking the easy life} Aversion: Democracy {Crime families are inherently dictatorships}

Aversion: Demo is never a good thing, but pop booming is already fairly difficult due to -1 growth and this faction's tendency to ICS. However, with demo gone, there's no real good SE choice. Police State is even more useless than normal, and Fundy is only decent in war (covert or overt). Frontier is, as always, a fair choice.

quote: Interested in Wealth Will use force: No {War is too overt a method of acquisition}

What about starting tech, do they get any?

Verdict:
Very strong, with easy drone control and the ability to practically ignore bureaucracy. Ideal SE would be Frontier/FM/Wealth, taking advantage of Immunity: Police, the commerce boost, the interest, and negating the morale penalty. The PTS would be the best early SP, but getting IA before someone else takes the PTS might be a challenge. The probe team helps with this, though.
Several routes to victory are plausible: economic through interest, diplomatic through ICS and +votes, transcend through high econ and ICS, or even conquer mainly through probing.

	06-08-2004 18:33									#5
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I agree with the sentiment Livid Imp. It's really amazing that we don't have several packages of solid alternate factions already here. The answer is that most people find the starting 14 factions enough to work with and play with, but still! And you won't find any more balanced factions on the Net, well, not many more. So this is a very good project.

Commerce: 1-2, Interest: 3-5 percent are general max's in my own play testing. Interest above 5 percent leads to absolutely vast amounts of cash. Commerce: 2 makes it tempting to avoid all wars, which is nice to encourage building in an otherwise military faction (which this isn't, but in general)

The police immunity is nice. How about aversion to Knowledge? I agree though that for a mafia, democracy doesn't fit. They'd always point to that and say 'See, those democracies are so inefficient compared to our dictatorial style'.

I like the rec-commons thematically. Unhappy thugs would just leave the syndicate, and the rec commons symbolizes that effect. People join b/c they see easy money and power. This makes 'em happy. The unhappy ones are dead or leave. But as CT points out, it is pretty powerful, perhaps too powerful. Consider using "SOCIAL, +TALENT", or "Talent, 5" to give them an extra talent or an extra talent every 5 citizens.

Also, in the long run, if you are tempted to use the Smax-only special faction bonuses, consider using just 1 per faction so that they are compatible with both Smax and Smac. The extra abilites just get ignored by Smac.

I hope you make another 6, or get others to contribute their own 'balanced and fair' (tm-Spartan Federation) factions, and playtest them! It would be great to have a really strong alternate set.

	06-08-2004 19:52									#6
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I saw a faction a while back whose core was

+2 Econ
-2 Effic

and was something like the Enron faction. It would be to Morgan what Domai is to Yang.

	06-08-2004 21:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Hmm, No demo, and a growth penalty. These guys can't pop boom at all until future society.

So don't choose them. My goal wasn't to make a faction you'd jump out of your seat to play. My goal was to make a balanced faction, that the player would have to learn to play differently. I been playing since SMAC was released, and the old factions/styles are boring to me anymore. The -1 Growth keeping you from pop-booming is by design.

quote: Originally posted by Whoha -2 inherent morale is a bad thing, wealth just makes it worse .

This is a minor penalty. Ask around, most people pump out nothing but very green troops for half the game.

quote: Originally posted by Whoha as for their benefits: +1 probe,+1 commerce,+10% interest on loans,30% more votes,40 extra ecs and a probe team. These are all nice, but do not compare with the penalties.

Many of the abilities were picked not just to be balancing, but to be realistic. These are attributes a crime family would have. Plus they direct play style.

quote: Originally posted by Whoha The immunity to police is wierd, on the one hand it means 1 police unit which is interesting, on the other it means that you can run fm and go to war, but with very very green troops.

The 1 police represents the street thug. A street thug wont bother enforcing most laws, if someone robs you, he wouldn't care. But if you are going to become a nuisance (like rioting), they'll put a bullet in your skull and drop your corpse in the local swamp. So not a lot of policing, but not much unrest either.

	06-08-2004 21:49									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf You realise you can only have eight options at most for a faction right?

Doh! I wasn't using a faction editor, so no, I didn't. I guess I'd drop the two start options then. They would have the least overall impact.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Why the morale penalty? Generally, being criminals, they should be more prepared for fighting, then say, your naive 15 year old draftee. Conscripts and mercenaries can be crack troops, too. If you train them well.

Morale can represent not only training, but loyalty. Conscripts and mercenaries will desert at the drop of a hat, therefore decreasing overall troop strength.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Research penalty: Generally, being a criminal or not does not affect research. You had Mad Scientists working for them, and punks discouraging it. It should be neutral: don't include it.

The "Mad Scientists" are what keep this from being a -2 or -3. Besides, why would criminals work for what they can steal. The +1 probe directly offsets this penalty.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Recreation Commons free? Wha? Why the emphasis? Isn't on crime?

Do some research on crime families and you'll find that they would commonly throw block parties and give gifts to the neighborhood locals. This was to build up good-will with the average Joe on the street so they wouldn't give information to the cops. People feel loyalty to those that take care of them, even if they are murderers.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Generally, your faction, should receive an extra drone every six citizens due to the ruthless crime, however, it should gain +1 police from the tough internal regulation.

The difference is that regulation isn't just internal to the crime gang, but also to neighborhoods under their control. Petty criminals not associated with the crime family will either get forced out or rubbed out.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Given their suspicion in the elections, any corruption in the elections would be neutralised.

Suspicion in the elections? What are you talking about? I think you misunderstood something.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf War? Surely they would use war...they will fight openly with force if they must.

Open warfare is not mafia style. Covert action would always be preferred.

	06-08-2004 21:57									#9
	Re: Re: Realistic Balanced Custom Factions..... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory What about starting tech, do they get any?

No, this is by design. Developing tech wouldn't be a high priority in a role playing sense, and it helps balance out the faction.

quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Verdict: Very strong, with easy drone control and the ability to practically ignore bureaucracy. Ideal SE would be Frontier/FM/Wealth, taking advantage of Immunity: Police, the commerce boost, the interest, and negating the morale penalty. The PTS would be the best early SP, but getting IA before someone else takes the PTS might be a challenge. The probe team helps with this, though. Several routes to victory are plausible: economic through interest, diplomatic through ICS and +votes, transcend through high econ and ICS, or even conquer mainly through probing.

You are right on the same page. This basically what I was thinking. Do you think it is a little too strong though? Smacksim mentioned the 10% interest being too high and I think I will cut that in half.

	06-08-2004 22:23									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by smacksim Commerce: 1-2, Interest: 3-5 percent are general max's in my own play testing.

I had not play tested it. Given that you have, I'll trust your numbers and readjust the interest to 5%.

quote: Originally posted by smacksim The police immunity is nice. How about aversion to Knowledge?

A crime syndicate wouldn't really be adverse to tech, they would simply find it to be unimportant. OTOH, opening it self up to the world (-2 probe), just doesn't make sense for a crime family. So that is a borderline suggestion. I am reluctant to restrict too many SEs though. Not a bad suggestion overall.

quote: Originally posted by smacksim I like the rec-commons....But as CT points out, it is pretty powerful, perhaps too powerful. Consider using "SOCIAL, +TALENT", or "Talent, 5" to give them an extra talent or an extra talent every 5 citizens.

But you are not going to attract talents to a crime syndicate. If the RC is too powerful I'd rather reduce the factions benefits, or remove the RC benefit altogether, rather than lose the 'criminal empire' feel with a load of talents.

quote: Originally posted by smacksim Also, in the long run, if you are tempted to use the Smax-only special faction bonuses, consider using just 1 per faction so that they are compatible with both Smax and Smac. The extra abilities just get ignored by Smac..

To be honest, I don't even know what are "Smax-only" bonuses. I bought SMAX the day it came out and never played vanilla SMAC since. Truth be told, I don't even consider myself to be the best person to be doing this as I have basically zero experience with modifying SMAC. I would have been perfectly happy finding a good alternate faction set on the net.

	06-08-2004 22:55									#11
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As far as the 8 ability limit per faction, there are two sets of abilities. One set is limited to 8, and includes things such as TECH, Ecology and SOCIAL, ++RESEARCH. The other is unlimited as far as I've seen, and includes things such as TECH, 1 and IMMUNITY, EFFIC. I have a list of those, but my computer is in pieces right now.

You can for yourself which abilities are limited by putting an easily tested one at the end (say, +PROBE), and checking whether it has an effect. If it does, great. If not, move other SOCIAL abilities after it until it shows up. Now you know how many you are in excess. Try putting other abilities after +PROBE instead to see if they count.

	06-08-2004 23:05									#12
	Got spare money?

I think I agreed with most of what chaos theory said. No pop boom and slow growth means a smaller faction early but you can go FM with half of its penalties eliminated. With interest at 10% and the probe rating, I was seeing this faction as a prober faction that would go FM and get energy banks going.

If you could get the PTS for the growth, you would be laughing and using an ICS style, you would be ridiculously wealthy-- Perhaps if you toned down the interest a bit as you indicated you would, they could be fun to play.

As for balance . . .

I think they would kick the ass of the AI since the AI wouldn't think to deny you the PTS and the AI doesn't defend against probes very well. You would steal all their tech (negating the research rating) and then start stealing their bases (negating bad growth)

In a PBEM, I think they mightstruggle against alert opponents that would move quickly to grab the PTS before you and would move to boom away from you population wise. The only equalizer I see is the possibilities of massive cash coming from constant FM and the interest effect.

Interesting mix though as you would have lots of money and little need to spend much of it on drone control. The interest is a wild card for me as I have never played with interest on. It just strikes me that it could be a huge advantage, particularly with a faction like this where you don't need to spend money early

	07-08-2004 00:01									#13
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Interest adds a nice dimension to the game. "Should I rush-buy now for turn advantage, or earn interest for later advantage?"

CT, I didn't even know about there being 2 lists of abilities. That could be useful to know! When you get your computer back together, could you post such?

As to having no experience modding, that's what we're here for , what makes Apolyton so great. If you really don't care about making it compatible with SMAC, you can use the Smax "NODRONE = Number of drones per base made content" to make a half-rec commons effect: Nodrone, 1

I bet if you post a list of ideas for the other 6 factions and request 'fair and balanced' you'll get a few of us to take up the task...

	07-08-2004 03:04									#14
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Personally I've always loved the original 7 faction and to a lesser extent the Alien Crossfire 7. I'd love to see them all more balanced rather than creating entire new factions which while cool just don't have the feel of the firaxis ones which we know so well largely due to the addition of their leaders sound files and such.

Though I wouldn't really know how if I were to balanc the 14 firaxis factions, rather than change them all I'd probably just locate the weakest to give more benefits to and the strongest to weaken a bit:

Just wondering if you guys agree with me on which factions need stregthening and which need weakening:

In need of strengthening:
Spartans
Cult of planet
Data Angels (possibly due to probe rollover bug)

In need of weakening:
The Hive

Anyone have any other ideas? Sorry if you feel I hijacked your thread livid imp but I felt this was related to your discussion.

	07-08-2004 09:02									#15
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No comment on my faction?

quote: Data Angels (possibly due to probe rollover bug)

Robust to knowledge?

This gives them +3 probe with knowledge and presentient....

quote: In need of weakening: The Hive

I think no pop-booming in any case, and -2 Econ is already penalising enough.

Hmm, immunity doesn't count in the eight limit? Ah, now let me edit the faction:

quote: SOCIAL, ++GROWTH, SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, ---POLICE, IMMUNITY, Growth, IMPUNITY, Planned, PENALTY, Police State, NODRONE, 2, SOCIAL, REVOLT, 50, FACILITY, 6

Muhahahaha!! Behold my new communist faction! Btw, facility 6 is Recreation Commons.

For the Spartans, they should get a free children's creche at every base, due to the emphasis on morale, training and discipline, education. etc.

Cult should get +1 probe, because they are a cult, generally, revered to native life - which native life being immune to probe teams....

	07-08-2004 19:10									#16
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Here's the file. All the faction options at the top are limited to 8 in number. The rule options at bottom I have never breached a cap of.

There is a substantial difference between NODRONE, 2 and free Rec Commons:

NODRONE works before Bureaucracy - Domai on a standard map with 0 effic and 12 bases, has drone riots in size 1 bases.

Free Rec Commons work after Bureaucracy - 100 bases at size 2 still won't riot

Free Rec Commons can be sabotaged, and sometimes don't apply to captured bases. NODRONE stacks with everything, but you can't build Rec Commons for even more drone control when you get them free.

Attachment: faction.zip
This has been downloaded 21 time(s).

	07-08-2004 19:50									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory I saw a faction a while back whose core was +2 Econ -2 Effic and was something like the Enron faction. It would be to Morgan what Domai is to Yang.

They should have -4 morale too!

Anyway, I browsed Network Node on one day and had some funny moments when I saw factions with properties like these:

^+3 INDUSTRY: {Major industrial power}
^+1 RESEARCH: {Interested in new machine prototypes}
^-2 MORALE: {Troops are rushed in without proper training}
^-2 PLANET: {Believe that Planet is only there for exploitation}
^Free Prototypes: {Engineers readily improvise}
^Free PRESSURE DOMES at every base
^Extra DRONE for every four citizens {(discontent citizens)}
^-10% PSI Combat PENALTY: {Fear of netive lifeforms}
^{May not use Green economics.}

and

^-EFFICIENCY: {Large infrasructure due to high growth patterns.}
^-3POLICE: {Followers of a pacifist religion.}
^+4GROWTH: {Ritual fertility ceremonies to enhance poulation growth.}
^EXTRA TALENT: {Per 8 citizens. Self fulfilled lifestyle.}
^FREE FACILITIES: {HAB COMPLEX, CHILDRENS' CRECHE, communal living structures}
^140% RESEARCH COSTS: {Little belief held in future technologies.}
^{May NOT use CYBERNETIC future society.}

and

^+2 ECONOMY: {Due to fanatical need for wealth}
^-2 PLANET: {Disregard for Planet in quest for wealth}
^+1 INDUSTRY: {The backbone of any economy}


Population booming or +2 economy from turn one?!

	07-08-2004 21:37									#18
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quote: There is a substantial difference between NODRONE, 2 and free Rec Commons:

And with both...

Anyway for your rate table, there needs to be more considerations in the social engineering table, also considerations of significant "stepping stone" social engineering that could lead to drastic (detriments or benefits) in situations, but might not, etc.

For example, +1 Econ should be around 3 points, but +2 should be eight points. +3, twelve, +4, fifteen, and +5, seventeen. As for capturing alien life forms. actually I'm starting to think that 0 should give a 5% chance. -1 Planet would give no chance, of course, but would be about it.

Anyway, what about the tables for what can be counted in the eight stuff limit, and what is not?

	08-08-2004 04:34									#19
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Thanks for the comments Natalinasmpf,

quote: No comment on my faction?

Sorry which faction is that? I only saw posts you made critiquing other factions.

quote: Data Angels (possibly due to probe rollover bug) Robust to knowledge? This gives them +3 probe with knowledge and presentient....

Hey good thinking. I'm gonna do this.

quote: In need of weakening: The Hive I think no pop-booming in any case, and -2 Econ is already penalising enough.

Personally I find the immunity to inefficiency compensates for the no pop boom and negative economy well. Allowing the Hive to pick police state and planned at no penalty is great for pre-clean reactor war mongering. Not to mention free perim defense. Perhaps changing the immunity to robust might be just enough to better balance them.

quote: For the Spartans, they should get a free children's creche at every base, due to the emphasis on morale, training and discipline, education. etc.

This might be to powerful allowing the Spartans to pop boom without ever having to build the necessary infrastructure. I'll have to play with the Spartans some more and come up with something. I don't really play online so its hard to make good balance decisions playing against the AI.

quote: Cult should get +1 probe, because they are a cult, generally, revered to native life - which native life being immune to probe teams....

Sounds reasonable I wonder if its a big enough change to really strengthen the cult though.

	08-08-2004 10:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: There is a substantial difference between NODRONE, 2 and free Rec Commons: And with both... Anyway for your rate table,

These aren't my tables or my creations. Credit goes to http://www.crosswinds.net/~smaccf/ (whether they still exist or not I don't know).

quote: there needs to be more considerations in the social engineering table, also considerations of significant "stepping stone" social engineering that could lead to drastic (detriments or benefits) in situations, but might not, etc. For example, +1 Econ should be around 3 points, but +2 should be eight points. +3, twelve, +4, fifteen, and +5, seventeen. As for capturing alien life forms. actually I'm starting to think that 0 should give a 5% chance. -1 Planet would give no chance, of course, but would be about it. Anyway, what about the tables for what can be counted in the eight stuff limit, and what is not?

quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Here's the file. All the faction options at the top are limited to 8 in number. The rule options at bottom I have never breached a cap of.

(emphasis added)

	10-08-2004 22:26									#21
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by logic_error Anyway, I browsed Network Node on one day and had some funny moments when I saw factions with properties like these: ......etc......etc.......etc......

I too started to post some of the god-awful factions over at the node, then I realized it would be easier to just mention the ones that are not completely ridiculous. But let's face it, that is no fun

	12-08-2004 21:53									#22
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What's that, Nat - Communist faction, you say? How about this!

Community of Chiron

^LEADER: {Maxim Nikolaiev Romanov}
^BACKGROUND: {Russian Commonwealth, Unity Librarian}
^AGENDA: {True Communism}
^TECH: {Ethical Calculus}

^-1 POLICE: {Police control contrary to faction ideology}
^-1 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to produce more than needed}
^
^Communal childcare: {Free CHILDREN'S CRECHE at each base}
^{May not use Police State politics.}

Priority: Eudaimonic {Believe everyone should be where they operate best}
Interested in Growth, Research
Will use force: No {Enforcing ideals upon others contrary to ideology}


Not a lot of mods, true, but I think it's both realistic and reasonable; I've played both as and against them a few times, and they work quite well. I'll gladly schlep the files around if anyone else wants to give them a run. And LI, can I try your mob?

Also, I'd really appreciate it if someone could work up some art for my Commies; I suck at drawing on a computer. :P

...Okay, how in blazes do you attatch a file to a post? >.<

Last edited by ShadowKat on 12-08-2004 at 22:37

	12-08-2004 22:46									#23
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Toss in an impunity somewhere, perhaps to complete it, or 2 less drones, or something? Anyone tried using the +TALENT (the social engineering choice, not Lal's or Uni's kind of talent setting)?

Heck, I wonder if one could try "OFFENSE 80, DEFENSE 125" to emphasise the defence measures over offense?

I'll try doing some art.

How do you do the funny year things, like the Cult's emergence is only 2106, and the 2110 Believer no research?

	12-08-2004 23:26									#24
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quote: How do you do the funny year things, like the Cult's emergence is only 2106...

The Cult's what? I've never seen that, although it really should happen; they've always been there at the start of the game for me!

quote: ...and the 2110 Believer no research?

That I think is hardcoded, unfortunately. Why? Wha'd ye have in mind?

	12-08-2004 23:26									#25
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I don't know about the delayed start, but when you have a penalty to research, you accumulate no research at all for the first 5*(-Research rating) years of the game (including 2100, so Miriam gets tech points in year 2110).

	12-08-2004 23:41									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ah, so thats why the drones weren't getting research!

I tried them for five years, then quit, because I thought that the 0.8 research I was getting meant that not a single point would accumulate till I got more.

Does fundamentalist also do that, if you switch to it midgame?

	12-08-2004 23:53									#27
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As far as I can tell, only factional research penalties cause this. Switching to fundy midgame definitely doesn't cause a problem, but there's a slim chance going fundy before 2110 might stifle your research (more).

	17-08-2004 11:48									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Me private rating sytem for Syndicate Mafia: 12/20. They're about on-par with believers or spartans, in my eyes. EStrength4/4 (lots of credits). EFlexibility3/4 (easier drone control). MStrength 1/4 (slower research and pathetic morale). OFlexibility 1/4 (see earlier, plus bad at running green). DFlexibility 3/4 (creds can pay for quick upgrades).

Just my perspective.

I dont think mafia-style faction would rank highly in my own eyes (ideology-wise), but I would tolerate this being used against me in SMAC2 Multiplayer.

As for the general problem about unbalenced factions, I attribute that to it having no power rating system (which I am trying to make, I'm still looking for suggestions and improvements). If there is something to be said for Civ3, civ bonuses (commercial, industrius, religous etc) were very concrete and measurable. But too cookie-cutter, imo. SMAX is more fluid, but takes more restraint and energy to make a balenced faction.

As for custom factions, my turn

Utopia
+1 Growth/Economy/Industry (Good working conditions and social contract)
-1 Morale/Police/Support (Pacifist, freedom-loving)
25% Attack Penalty (Lack of agression)
1 Talent every 4 citizens (Idealism attracts intellectual elite)

Agenda-Eudaimonia
Shun-Power
Focus-Growth

My rating system puts them at 14/20, so their strength is equal to that of the Hive or Peacekeepers. But I'd like to hear your thoughts. I was thinking of adding x2 penalties of Police State, but I thought it would be overkill.

Last edited by Quezacotl06 on 17-08-2004 at 12:23

	17-08-2004 12:32									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Okay...having gotten over my raging case of the stupids (baka baka baka), here's the Community for people to check out. I haven't made the mods yet, but I'm seriously considering adding a 75% offense/125% offense offset and an impunity to, mmmm, Planned economics. Thoughts?

Attachment: commie.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	17-08-2004 12:35									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think there should be an opposite to Immunity, like Pathetic efficiency, efficiency that can never go above 0. It could give some interesting SE options, eh?

As for -1 Talent, its a killer. extra drone at every base (at least im sure thats what it is). So 1 pop and 1 drone. You are paralyzed till u get to size 2, when u doctor, then u use ur 1 worker to quickly build a rec commons or police or something before u reach size 3, when the difficulty level drones kick in.

As for your commie faction, I don't think its attributes are particularly communist. It should be aversion to FMarket. You could keep it pro-eudaimonia (but i recomend giving it a focus that is a benefit of planned, because its nationalized industry/welfare state, which communism created. My idea for communist would be: +1 Industry (integrated cooperative industrial complex), and -1 Efficiency (Lack of market competition), and maybe -1 Drones, because most drones are malcontents, and commies are a type of modern malcontent, and would be normal citizens. I think the Ind bonus and Eff penalty is good cause it strikes a balence between extra minerals, and less energy (not as extremly as the hive, mind you). As an extra, robust efficiency (rather than immunity) would keep them from being distablized too much economicaly.

Last edited by Quezacotl06 on 17-08-2004 at 14:12