08-08-2004 09:11									#1
	Negotiations with the University Suffering from ads?

We have met Zak - in 2125

Attachment: zak contact.jpg
This has been downloaded 37 time(s).

	08-08-2004 09:17									#2
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Hmm - he doesn't have yang's commlink - should we trade him it for 20 ec's?

(Darn not being able to save the game at this point - we must let negotiations take their course)

Attachment: zak-yang.jpg
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

	08-08-2004 09:26									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Deleted - Major Googlie was dreaming under a xenorum induced stupor

Last edited by Googlie on 10-08-2004 at 03:21

	08-08-2004 09:31									#4
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quote: (hmm - maybe I can, until someone else can load the turn and we invoke the AI diplomacy simultaneous play rule to see if he will accept the trade, or if he does declare vendetta if we outright refuse

Hmm? We can use that to "play ahead" a bit? If so I can help out and see what happens.

	08-08-2004 09:31									#5
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He's offering gene splicing? Go for it!

	08-08-2004 09:32									#6
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Great - and anyone else here - can we use the chatroom:

http://googlie2.tripod.com/thespart...ation/id14.html

and maybe coach me in the negotiations live?

	08-08-2004 09:33									#7
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Alright, I'll dl the save, fire up SMAX and show up at the chat.

	08-08-2004 09:33									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter He's offering gene splicing? Go for it!

EWell, not so much offering anything - he's demanding Flex - one of our reply options is to ask for gene Splicing

	08-08-2004 10:21									#9
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A summary of our transactions with the university:

*Traded Yang commlink for 25 ECs, right?
*Unable to trade any tech.
*Diplomatic stance is...truce? The chat was kind of hard to follow, with the simulator and the game turn going at the same time. .

	08-08-2004 10:34									#10
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Correct

And could have Lal's commlink for 25 ec's if i hadn't changed to planned before meeting Zak

	08-08-2004 10:42									#11
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Meeting Zak was totally unforeseen, so nothing we could have done anyways. Wait a second: Since we got 25 ECs for Yang's commlink, shouldn't we have been able to purchase Lal's commlink for 25 ECs?

We can try to get Lal's commlink next turn. Hopefully Zak and Yang won't have traded Lal's commlink already, and we'll be able to sell Lal Yang's commlink for another 25 ECs. Overall, pretty exciting, meeting Zak.

	08-08-2004 10:48									#12
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I believe that we were at 35 credits at turn start. We then received 25 credits, and spent 40 on Planned. 20 credits remain.

	08-08-2004 10:56									#13
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No - we had 40 (that's why i could change to planned) - we just got 20 ec's for Yang's commlinks.

Currently (as I changed back from Planned pending the poll results) we have 60 ec's

	08-08-2004 10:56									#14
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Ah, I see. Perhaps if we changed our energy allocations for this one turn so that we'd have at least 25 ECs by next turn, we could then call up Zak and see if he's still willing to give us Lal's commlink for 25 ECs, and then call Lal and see if we can sell him Yang's commlink for 25 ECs, thus re-imbersing ourselves and getting Lal's commlink in the process. Or we could just wait until Zak gives Lal's commlink to Yang, Yang finds the Gaians, and then Yang calls an election, thus giving us everyone's commlink.

Edit: Bah, I should've let the "switching to planned" debate rest for another turn. Eh, everything can't be perfect.

	08-08-2004 10:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Ah, I see. Perhaps if we changed our energy allocations for this one turn so that we'd have at least 25 ECs by next turn ...........

Can do.

Lal is the wealth leader, so we should be able to sell him a couple of non-contentious techs (and when we get our recon rover, and upgrade the current 4, then maybe we can extort enough from him to pay for the upgrades !!)

	08-08-2004 14:57									#16
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I'm begging you, please don't sell Zak's or Lal's comm frequency to the Hive!!!

Then you're essentially just giving away Zak's and Lal's frequencies to anyone who has met the Hive. Don't we lose a serious advantage this way?? As long as the other factions don't have access to the two AIs, we are denying the humans commerce income, possible loans, possible tech trades... Instead, we could try to get techs (such as Gene Splicing) ourselves from them, and sell them to the other human factions for an inflated price. As the only go-between partner between the human and AI factions, we could make some serious profit. Is a mere one-time 20(?) credits lump sum really worth giving all those advantages away??

Of course when we don't have sell Zak's frequency to the Hive (or the other way around?), we don't immediately get the credits necessary for obtaining Lal's frequency. But if we'd put our energy allocations to 60-10-30 for a short while, we'd produce 8 credits per turn, and we would soon have the money to buy Lal's frequency after all.

So therefore, please use the AI diplomacy rule to replay from the first midturn Googlie posted before Zak was met!!

(Edit: And if we'd want to prevent a reload message (though it would be a legal one), I've got a clean turn.)

Last edited by Maniac on 08-08-2004 at 15:11

	08-08-2004 17:03									#17
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Should we check with the mods to see if that would be legal?

That's a really good point, Maniac. Once the others get Zak's comm frequency through Yang, they'll all have access to gene splicing and Zak's other goodies too. And they'll be paying Zak for them, whereas if we could be the go-between, we could choose which techs we wanted to let through, and we'd be getting payed for them. Also, if Yang doesn't have contact with Lal, then there's no rush to contact Lal and trade with him before Yang does.

	08-08-2004 17:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Should we check with the mods to see if that would be legal?

Since parallel turns for AI diplomacy are allowed (to give the team the ability to discuss the actions to take as we are doing now, instead of the turnplayer being forced to decide on his own), the only legal problem I see is that we could get a different pod popping result. However if that's really a problem for the mods, I guess we could always replay until we get the same pod pop result.

	08-08-2004 17:46									#19
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Well, go ahead maniac (I downloaded the midturn save but got the replay message - I didn't know if subsequent saves would remove the message)

It's here

	08-08-2004 17:49									#20
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(Note: he still won't trade us Gene Splicing for Doc Flex, but will sell lal's commlink for 25 ec's)

(And do you want to meet in the Command Center)

	08-08-2004 18:00									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac However if that's really a problem for the mods, I guess we could always replay until we get the same pod pop result.

In ACDG-II I used a reverse discrimination rule. If the original podpop had been a bad event (eg a mindworm) then I ruled that they had to try as often as would give them the same result.

However if the original had been a goodie (like a monolith, or facs completiion) then I ruled that only 1 replay was allowed, and if the result was worse, then so be it

G.

	08-08-2004 18:51									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Well, go ahead maniac (I downloaded the midturn save but got the replay message - I didn't know if subsequent saves would remove the message)

I didn't get one, I guess because you attached the first midturn save before continuing to play and post the second midturn.

So you're ok with not selling the commlink?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie (Note: he still won't trade us Gene Splicing for Doc Flex, but will sell lal's commlink for 25 ec's)

Do we want to buy the Lal commlink now (and thus wait some four turns before we can switch to Planned - presuming we'd be running 60% economy allocation), or save our money for Planned, and buy Lal's commlink in four turns?

	08-08-2004 19:08									#23
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I'm OK with not selling Yang to Zak (I didn't know if he'd turn belligerent if we refused)

I'd wait too for Lal's commlink - we just have more flexibility with our ec's this way

	09-08-2004 20:40									#24
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Just to confirm, you can replay AI diplomacy, provided you haven't accepted a world map or pact (and thuis extra info). With the pod pop, while it shouldn't be replayed, Googlie's reverse discrimination rule seems like the best way to do it.

However, just to remind you, after this:

quote: Currently (as I changed back from Planned pending the poll results) we have 60 ec's

that changing SE settings twice in a turn (thus getting the refund) is not permitted, though if that was done, I can't see anything you've done during the change.

	09-08-2004 21:10									#25
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Further expanded on AI explanation in the turn thread, along with Method's ruling (which is correct).

	10-08-2004 03:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue that changing SE settings twice in a turn (thus getting the refund) is not permitted

I think that rule was intended to prohibit, for example, changing to green, attacking a mindworm and getting the gren +1 planet bonus, then changing back after the capture.

I don't think it wa sintended to prohobot vchanging SE choices, then seeing waht effect hat had on production or on research, energy credits, drones, etc, then changing back because the infrastructure wasn;t in palce to quell drones, boost energy,, etc

Essentially what i did in my turnplay was to change to Planned (as there was some debate on the effect on our research rate, play with the sliders to see if i could maintain that same rate, then I got distracted, moved the rover, encountered Zak, etc

There never was any intent to make a permanent change until the poll results were in on that subject.

So I think the rule prohibition, and what I did, were different.

I agree, btw, that disbanding the cloned rover is the fairest thing to do in the circumstances we find ourselves in (short of ordfering that the original turn be continued - whereby we did sell Yang's commlink to Zak)

	10-08-2004 06:06									#27
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You are correct with regards to the intent, and as long as no-one does AI diplomacy while changed, I'd be fine with it. IIRC, you don't get the bonus attacking MWs, since it has to have had it for a turn to work (I tried it in an SP once and it didn't work).

	10-08-2004 07:23									#28
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Hmm - I believe that you're right (and the same would hold true for changing to planned for the Industry bonus, to get a cheaper rush build - it'd have to be in effect the next turn's opening for it to work)

But it's main impact would, I believe, lie in the negotiations with the AI - change to POLICE to talk to Yang and get goodies from him, then change back after the dialogue box is closed. That'd definitely be a breach of the rules, IMO