21-05-1999 15:14									#1
	Logo Got spare money?

Personally, I feel there's a need to revamp the Clash web site to bundle all information coming up in these threads (it's just not readble any more).

As a web designer (and graphics maniac), of course I'm primarily concerned with how it should look - and here the important question of a Clash logo comes up.

Any ideas? I feel that something like the front cover of "Warcraft II: Orcs vs. Humans" would be exactly in the right mood.

Mark, what do you have in mind for your "baby"?

	22-05-1999 09:25									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dominique:

I agree with you that the threads need to be put into proposals that sum up the gist of the discussion and agreement. I Can't do it all. I think we'll get more people in soon and hopefully among them will be some with organizational skills in addition to the other things they bring...

I'd say when we have several more concrete things to add it would be time to let you loose on the web-page redesign . However MarkG here at Apolyton is waiting for a screenshot to do a rough preview of Clash... So when we know roughly what to put in a screenshot (and you're already making progress!) I'd rate that above the web page redesign.

On the logo. Yes, we need it soon. WII, These two guys staring menacingly at each other? It doesn't do anything for me.

I'd like something that says that you can do different things in the game: war, economics, government, technology etc. But how to say this in a logo is beyond me...

I do have one idea. Since what I want to get across is the multi-faceted nature of Clash, how about a faceted gem with images depicting different aspects of the game? The ones curving away might be barely visible but imply that there's yet more beyond if you just pick it up and turn it over. A hand holding the fist-size 'gem' maybe? The most apparent aspects of the game would get the front-most facets and then you would move out from there. Anyway, that's the best a physicist who is artistically challenged can come up with on the spot.

	22-05-1999 09:41									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Mark:

The WC2 came to mind because my dictionary explains "clash" as "confrontation, collision, bumping into, impact, conflict". And that's quite nicely shown in those two faces.

But, hehe, I get the feeling I get to know you slowly - your approach to the logo is TYPICAL for what from you so far: You want do do it all, show it all, the more info the better

Believe me, I tend to handle things the same way but had to learn that in gfx design that simply is not the way to go. In design, you play with emotions, quick thoughts at best.

So what's needed for a logo is something that transmit the atmosphere of the game.

You want something quite intellectual, but that's not what people like. They don't want to think, they want to FEEL. Your idea is absolutely to the point as for what Clash really IS... but does that matter?

Just think of some of the more successful games and their logos:

CIV2 had no logo - but it had the name instead (better than any new logo can be).

The "General" series used war medals.

All very basic logos.

Quake - great logo! Saying absolutely nothing but VERY impressive in the literal sense.

CtP - (hm... successful?) uses that compass-like thing. Again, some abstraction.

The Ultima line uses mainly the Ankh as a symbol.

Tell ya what: I'll just make something up and you then just say what you think of it - I won't be angry if you don't like it, ok?



[This message has been edited by Dominique (edited May 21, 1999).]

	23-05-1999 17:58									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Alright, a first approach towards a logo has been done - please comment freely on this, since it certainly is far from being perfect



Just a short comment on this one:

Other than Mark I feel that a SIMPLE and more or less ABSTRACT logo is best. Too many bells and whistles and you will only make the customer(?) uncertain of what this really is about.

I chose a portrait of Pericles, since he's one of the very few leaders in history who really reflects most aspects of what Clash is to be: He was statesman, politician, economist, philosopher, strategist...

I set him in two different colors so as to stress the conflict situation (the "clash" has to be transmitted somehow).

As for now, I didn't do any graphical fancywork (3D effects and the like). Maybe this could be added, but 3D has lost much of it's spectacularity since there are so many programs out there which allow even the youngest kid to design 3D logos.

Please don't spare me with criticism!

Again, this was only done to get a first starting point.

	23-05-1999 18:28									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dominique:

I think the concept is good, and see what you mean about the visceral aspect. The dual-Pericles look has Got to go though... We need a similar Periclean figure from some other culture (and probably time) for the "flip-side" image IMO. Winston Churchill would be good for the theme, but that would leave us with two european cultures.

Again I think the basic impact is IMO very good. We just need another leader. Ideas anyone?

	23-05-1999 18:39									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yes, I wasn't sure whether to use Pericles twice, myself - honestly, I wasn't able to find a similar picture of another person as suited as him that fast.

Ideally, the portrait would come from a totally different culture (someone chinese would be nice) or be more modern. But I feel somehow it wouzldn't be too good to take a person from newer history (like Churchill). It's somehow strange to "abuse" such people's portrait for a game, don't you think?

Anyway, if you find a suitable portrait (ideally, a statue), please let me know!

	23-05-1999 19:06									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes, Churchill would probably be pushing it. Alternatively I've seen paintings of Pericles... so if we come up with a painting of someone else it still might be made to work.

	23-05-1999 19:25									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmmm. Confucius verus Pericles? Maybe Geghis Khan v. Pericles? How about Caesar Augustus?

Alexander the Great v. Confucius, or a powerful Chinese emperor? It's a bit hard as we don't want to duplicate the "characters" from Civ, do we?

	23-05-1999 22:04									#9
	Tired of ads?

Okay, here's a new version of the logo - sorry to say that I couldn't find a better version of the photo (one of those famous chinese terracotta warriors), but I think it goes into the right direction.



As with all other graphics, as soon as we have agreed on what exactly to do, more detailed work can go into this - please see the logo as what it is: a crude sketch only.

	23-05-1999 22:07									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I like the general idea a lot and think we should go with it. As far as I'm concerned you can start refining now . Great Job!

-Mark

	23-05-1999 23:33									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Thx, Mark, but it's not THAT easy

See, not only that we have to go through all this "what should economy be like" etc. - many more aspects must be decided on. Even for such a "simple" thing like a logo there are fundamental aspects which have to be decided - because lateron it will be too late. Remember, the logo is the "face".

So, the points are:

- colors: I chose red / green only for the reason that they are the "classical" left / right colors. Obviously, we could instead use red / blue (the classical "enemy / friend" colors). Or we could do the faces in metallic tones...

- the rim / the letters: Do you think we should stick to the gold / silver patern? What about 3D? As it is now, that's all simple and flat.

- The font: I used a simple Times New Roman for now, which gives it a very classical look. Maybe too old-fashioned?

To take your idea of incorporating the different aspects of Clash into the logo (I didn't say this was a BAD idea, mind you): How about putting little logos incorporating these aspects into the corners of the logo? And, if so, what logos (something representing military, science, economy, politics)?

You might say all these are not-so-important questions, but, really, at the moment this is ALL WE HAVE and it is to stay the same until the "end", so this job must be done well! Remember, should Clash indeed some day "hit the shelves", then it NEEDS a placative logo - and a professional one (and while I'm a web designer and know how to use my tools, logo design is NOT my primary concern normally).

Anyway, I'd like to have as much input on this one from as many people as possible


Last thing for now: Should I try to put a (darkened) globe in the background of the circle so as to symbolize the "world game" character of Clash?

SOOO many questions...

	24-05-1999 00:01									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Colors: I really don't know.
Lettering and Font: I like them as they are

I really like your notion of cameo sort of pieces in the corners. Ideally I'd like them to span over several "dimensions":
Game Areas, as you said: military, science, economy, politics
Eras: Ancient, Midieval, E. Modern, Contemporary
Cultures / Ethnicities: As wide as possible within the other constraints.

I like the globe idea very much too, if you can get away with it. IMO it will probably fight with the pictures in the corners...

OK others, lets give Dominique some opinions!

-Mark

	24-05-1999 00:24									#13
	Put an end to popups!

I like the general concept. Here are some observations.
Peracles is great, but Iīm not sure about the chinaman, I think the two faces must stare each other in the eye, as it is they seem to be looking past each others ear. Also, I donīt like the green/red, but maybe if it was toned down a bit it would be better, I feel it draws too much attention from the other aspects of the design. Maybe the circle could be made more obvious?
The font/style is ok by me, Iīd have to see your other ideas (the corner pictures and the background globe) before commenting in that, but Iīm of the opinion you stated at the start, that the design should be simple, Iīm afraid that putting all those other pictures in might overcrowd it. But we wont know until we try, I guess :-).

	24-05-1999 00:56									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Some more input, this time from my wife who's an artistic type...

Her opinion was, no globes or corner insets, since they'd clutter it up too much. (I think I agree with her after some thought.) IHO the lettering and layout was good as is. She suggested the faces should be Queen Elizabeth I and Gengis Khan, which I think is a very good suggestion. It kind of catches one of the biggest transitions in history in motion. They'd probably be found in paintings rather than statuary. Whether they can be found in profile or not, who knows.

I think I'm with Hrafnkell that the tones on the faces are a little too strong.

	24-05-1999 01:13									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

One more thing, maybe the design should be circular rather than rectangular? This of course would mean that the text layout needs to be reworked so theyīd fit within the circle. I think Queen Elizabeth is a good candidate, and Genghis Kahn too if we can find suitible pictures of them. Iīm still of the opinion that for this design to work the two faces must look at each other, this probably limits what people we can use to what suitible pictures we can find.

	24-05-1999 01:19									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thx for this first feedback!

Last version for today:



Yes, right, the green was a bit too strong - tried it with blue this time; problem is that green at the same brightness looks more intense than red (that's why red light has such a soothing effect...).

Mark, your wife's idea concerning Ghengis and QE2 is very good... if now just someone could give me good PROFILE pictures of them? For now, I settle with Cleopatra, at least she's a woman

Furthermore, I inserted that small starfire in the middle to stress the "clash" aspect - and made the word "CLASH" chrome 3D, to stress it further as the "main title".

And, yes, about cluttering up: I came to the same conclusion when thinking about it... as I stated earlier on: Less is more.

	24-05-1999 02:48									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Wow:

Nice. Very nice.

	24-05-1999 03:41									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Celopatra's eyes look good.... hard, determined, challenging....

Any pictures used should have clearly emphasised eyes, since they convey emotion so well.

Pericles without his pupils just looks, well, lifeless. (duh)

That was the first thing that struck me about the orcs vs humans picture in WC2 - the way they were eyeballing each other; starting each other down.

The red vs blue colour scheme is really good, although a metallic scheme might look better. I don't know. Are you going to post a 'library' of logos anywhere?

Jim

	24-05-1999 04:33									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Lookin' Good.

My only change would be to make the "Civilizations" a little bit bigger. Jim's point about the eyes is good too. I'll try and surf the web for some images of Gengis and 'Liz when I get a chance.

	24-05-1999 08:33									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

As they look longingly into each other's eyes you can see the sparkle... love at first sight.

It'd be great if you could get a picture of Ghenghis but you won't. No one knows what he looked like.

	24-05-1999 09:33									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Just a couple of comments,

first, I think the background color can be changed from the black it is now. I donīt know to what, maybe gray or yellow?

secondly, I donīt think we should make them metallic color because then weīre too close to the box-picture on the game Advanced Civilization (based on the original board-game), where the mask of Tut-ankammon and some Greek guy stare at each other.

	24-05-1999 15:07									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Great - I really love all of you commenting so freely; after all, we have to have a logo that most people simply LIKE.

- metallic: I, too, believe the figures shouldn't be metallic

- Ghengis Khan: No way of finding a 3D-pic of him. I found some drwan illustrations of Temujin, but that's it.

- Cleopatra: Strange, you all fell for it - of course it's Nofretete But here you can see one very important thing: It doesn't count that much if the persons on the logo really are great leaders etc. - all that counts is that people recognze them SOMEHOW and are familiar with the logo from the first glance

- "Love at first sight": I wouldn't reject the picture if it WERE this way... after all, a good civlike game CAN be quite warles and cooperative, right?

- for now, I'll try to give Pericles pupils, wonder how this will look like...

- "Civilization" will become bigger.

- color should be black, I think. It's a rule that most illustration look best on black background - that's why most photographers use it, and that's why most game sites on the web feature black pages, as well (ever noticed?).

Again, thx for the support. If we had some more graphics people here, they sure could come up with additional idias or sketches, but it doesn't look like it...

	24-05-1999 17:16									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Good morning (actually, it's afternoon over here in Germany)!

I redid it from scratch and hope it's a bit better now in some details - mainly Pericles' somewhat fierce expression



Btw., some not so unimportant aspect is how good you can scale down the logo, because we should be able to incorporate it in small form in the game itself, too - so it better be not too complicated. For now, even on 140 x 140 it's quite recognizable, I think (the original size I work with is 1024 x 1024):

.

	24-05-1999 17:24									#24
	Got spare money?

It looks great.

I looked around for QEI last night but couldn't come up with anything in profile.

I think Perilces looks a little too fierce, kinda like a raving lunatic. Perhaps just a dash of white nearer the nose. (those who can, do, those who can't criticise)

For a final I still think we need two more different time periods or cultures. I will look around and see Who can be come up with in profile.

My wife said "That's not Cleopatra, thats Nefertari", but we were too polite to correct you

Have Fun,

Mark

	24-05-1999 17:42									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Okay, I won't change anything now until someone comes up with a suitable image.

Of course, the IDEAL confrontation would be e.g.

- female, European, modern leader

vs.

- male, asian, ancient leader

But I feel it's more important to have that "yes, I recognize them!" feeling - as for Pericles, I'm sure no one will recognize him, but at least you recognize the image as that of an antique statue, giving the logo that sophisticated nuance

And while personalyity contrasts are fine, the IMAGES should be in harmony, i.e. either 2 oil paintings or 2 photographs or 2 statues. Mixing those types doesn't look convincing (and you can only do so much by image manipulation).

Kudos to your wife, Mark - she's got a sharp eye

	24-05-1999 23:24									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In spite of my "promise" to not change anything again, I now have the "final preliminary version".

Changes:
- "CLASH" gets a dark border again, because it's better readable this way

- all other letters with different (lighter) texture (better readable)

- Pericles now doesn't look like a maniac.

- Smaller version optimized to smooth circle




These versions should appear at the web site (entry page / all other pages).


[This message has been edited by Dominique (edited May 24, 1999).]

	25-05-1999 01:08									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Dominique,

The last version is really good looking. I can imagine I go to a computer shop and pick from the shelf.

Blade Runner

	25-05-1999 04:01									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanx Blade,

that's about the biggest compliment you can do towards someone who is used to do web graphics only normally

But, frankly, this is a PRELIMINARY version (until we have found the "ideal" motif).

	26-05-1999 01:51									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I looked at the last logo first. and I like it. But the font made me think that it was a "child of Civ" game. I'd suggest a change to something that does not so closely resemble the font used for the Microprose "Civilization".

	26-05-1999 03:50									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

I thatought about that, too, but stayed with this one for 3 reasons:

1) Mark likes it

2) The font now used is "Times New Roman", so as well a widely known font (no "fancy font") as one fitting to the "classical" graphical theme.

3) Choosing such a common font makes it easier to create fitting headlines / text in game, manual, web site...

But certainly I could change that easily, if most people would like it.