10-08-2004 07:07									#1
	I seem to be getting worse at this game Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

For all this time I've continually gotten better at Civ3. But maybe I have peaked, and am now going back downhill. I used to be able to consistantly win at monarch level, but now I cannot beat it anymore. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Here's a screen shot of my utter suckitude. I'm not going to ***** about resources this game. Because even though I don't reload anymore, I did restart several games until I got a resource in my initial city square. I got cows. But as you can see the zulu have horses and iron, and I do not. Not that they need them, but I do.

I hate to go back to regent, because that level is incredibly easy. But I don't know what else to do.

I can post a save, but since I no longer reload, the only save I have is 4000 BC . actually I may have some autosaves, but I never check that folder unless my game crashes.

This screen shot is on a tiny map. 3 opponents I believe. Middle continent setting.

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	10-08-2004 07:32									#2
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Can't say much about tiny maps, I have never tried one. I would guess it is not a good game for France next to Zulus. This is made even more so with that terrain.

No water to irrigate, only one bonus food, moutains in the city and no iron or horses. I would say that is not going to be fun.

I would wonder why you have those forrest left, did you have more? A chop or two could help with say a barracks. Vet archers back with a few spears can do damage.

I would think a very tight spacing and build nearly nothing but troops. You must take that whole island quickly.

I would not be researching hard as you would need the cash for troops.

	10-08-2004 07:34									#3
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It seems like the Zulus just overwhelmed you with sheer numbers. From looking at the minimap, they out-expanded you by a little, and then with their GA they were easily able to outnumber you.

A few random tips:

Since you're playing at Monarch level, your first two citizens will be content. This means you can leave cities unit-less for a while.

Don't underestimate the power of the Granary. A lot of players shy away from it, under the impression that it's a short-term investment, and their cities will grow to max size eventually anyway. However, with a granary, you can have a city build virtually nothing but settlers, and easily outREX the AI. The granary gives long-term benifits as well.

I see from the resources that you have Conquests. In Conquests, you want to go for Philosophy before Map Making. (If you have, ignore this point)

Have one of your higher production cities build a barracks, and just pump out spearmen. It's far better than having low-production cities try to build their own.

	10-08-2004 07:35									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Can't say much about tiny maps, I have never tried one. I would guess it is not a good game for France next to Zulus. This is made even more so with that terrain. No water to irrigate, only one bonus food, moutains in the city and no iron or horses. I would say that is not going to be fun. I would wonder why you have those forrest left, did you have more? A chop or two could help with say a barracks. Vet archers back with a few spears can do damage. I would think a very tight spacing and build nearly nothing but troops. You must take that whole island quickly. I would not be researching hard as you would need the cash for troops.

He's in Despotism. Cash does him no good.

	10-08-2004 08:26									#5
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Gosh I would NOT know what to do on a non-premade map. Funny thing about pre-made maps, always seem to have 'plenty' of resourses. And now that I mention it, seem to have always have plenty of elbow room, when pre-designating those starting positions too, especially on 'larger' maps.

I guess Vanilla can be a real bear sometimes wouldn't know tho....

	10-08-2004 08:35									#6
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I'm done with this game. Those 2 yellow cities have french names if you noticed. The zulus can't take my capitol though, my production is too good there.

They attacked me when I was still in expansion phase. I hadn't built up a military yet. It might have been my fault for telling them to **** off when they demanded some outrageous things. The 2 destroyed cities did not have defenders. The 2 cities they took had spearman. But they defeated them using 2 impi each.

But their impi can't take my city with walls, or my archers coming out of my capitol.

This is my first tiny map game as well. I thought it might be interesting.

haven't had a chance to chop forest yet, I was attacked fairly early by the zulu. They were beligerant even when I first met them. *******s

	10-08-2004 08:42									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar It seems like the Zulus just overwhelmed you with sheer numbers. From looking at the minimap, they out-expanded you by a little, and then with their GA they were easily able to outnumber you. A few random tips: Since you're playing at Monarch level, your first two citizens will be content. This means you can leave cities unit-less for a while. Don't underestimate the power of the Granary. A lot of players shy away from it, under the impression that it's a short-term investment, and their cities will grow to max size eventually anyway. However, with a granary, you can have a city build virtually nothing but settlers, and easily outREX the AI. The granary gives long-term benifits as well. I see from the resources that you have Conquests. In Conquests, you want to go for Philosophy before Map Making. (If you have, ignore this point) Have one of your higher production cities build a barracks, and just pump out spearmen. It's far better than having low-production cities try to build their own.

yep, I built a granary in my capitol for settler production. But I had to research it (don't start with it, couldn't trade for it). I like civs that start with pottery . I lose time reserching pottery and building granary. Maybe I should have pop rushed my granary. I worry about pop rushing before I get my temple, sometimes I can't get that citizen content again.

What build do you guys do with your first city?

I build 3 warriors then built a granary- then settlers. But I seem to be getting outrexed by the AI this way.

	10-08-2004 08:50									#8
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I typically build two warriors and one settler before starting on my granary, depending on when it becomes available. I'll forego the settler if I don't have either good food production at the capital or very good food production at the second site. If possible, I'll chop for the granary, too, especially if I've built a settler.

	10-08-2004 09:20									#9
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Three warriors is too much on almost any setting. That's part of your problem.

	10-08-2004 10:25									#10
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Dissident, could you post your 4000BC save?

	10-08-2004 11:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar He's in Despotism. Cash does him no good.

Oh really, I guess it can't be stock piled to pay for extra units, then. Because that is what I would be doing with it. Supporting my forces.

	10-08-2004 17:19									#12
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If nothing else, cash is useful for buying tech or sueing for peace.

	11-08-2004 05:16									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Dissident, could you post your 4000BC save?

let's see if this works.

I'll work on not building 3 warriors. I used to value exploration quite a bit (2 to explore, 1 as garrison). But in a lot of games, there just aren't that many huts to pop. Unlike games like SMAC where they are all over the place. In this particular game I don't think I got any huts.

Forest chopping. What are all your strategies for this? I don't do that much of it. Esp. not in the early game. should I chop more forests? I often only chop forests at cities that already have too much forest in their radius.

	11-08-2004 10:27									#14
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Forrest chops are best used to cut the time it takes to build that early granary or barrack, maybe even a temple, if you have forrest to spare and workers.

A bit later in the game you may need to chop forrest in core cities to make the tile available for better use. A 1F2SxC tile is great the first 100 turns or so, but you can get to the point that you need to get 2F from that tile and that means chop it. Try to do it when the shields are going to a structure or unit build.

In between times, it depends on what you are doing. I tend to get them all chopped, unless they are need to slow intruders. A few other cases do exist, but not enough to sweat.

	11-08-2004 10:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident let's see if this works. I'll work on not building 3 warriors. I used to value exploration quite a bit (2 to explore, 1 as garrison). But in a lot of games, there just aren't that many huts to pop. Unlike games like SMAC where they are all over the place. In this particular game I don't think I got any huts.

2 to explore AND a garrison is overkill. You should build 1-2 to explore, and 0-1 to garrison.

Since this is monarch, you don't have happiness trouble until size 3, even without luxuries. If you time your settler just right so it finishes as you reach size three, you can have a settler without the need for a garrison.

	11-08-2004 17:13									#16
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Is it true though that chopping forest more than once when a city is working on the same project doesn't have any effect? In other words I think you can only chop forests once per project to get the 10 shield benefit.

My first city build order (on Monarch) goes something like this....

2 warriors, settler, granary (if I can build it) or worker, settler, warrior, settler, settler, settler.....

It's all dependant on if there is a food resource and/or river available to create the settler pump.

	11-08-2004 17:34									#17
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AFAIK, you can chop all you want for 10 shields, but just once per tile and not for wonders.

Does anyone know if you can start with a tile that was not forested, plant it, and then chop it one time for 10?

	11-08-2004 18:41									#18
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Yes, gunk, you can chop a planted forest and get shields. Just like native forest, you can only do it once per tile.

	11-08-2004 19:21									#19
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Just to be clear, shields from chops will not go to a city making a wonder (great or small). You can add as many chops as you have virgin forrest.

That is if you have 4 tiles with forrest, you can chop them all and get shield from each. You can plant a forrest on a tile that has never had a forrest and then chop it and get shields.

You just can't replant a forrest and chop it and get shields for the second time from a tile.

	11-08-2004 20:06									#20
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Thanks everyone for clearing up the forest chop isssue for me!

I've let this strategy go to waste then because I have misunderstood it.

	11-08-2004 22:25									#21
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I think the problem here is that you're not used to playing on a tiny map. Forget the REX. Get 3-4 cities down then prepare yourself to whoop some AI butt!

Lack of iron/horses at this early stage of the game is not a big deal. Archers/spears will do just fine. In this particular game, I would have attacked the first impi I saw with an exploring warrior. Give them a 2-3 city GA. Sure, you may be on your heels for a little while while they are in the GA, but after that, they're all yours.

You had empty cities when there are impis running around? Bad idea. At least have a warrior garrisoning those frontier cities.

Playing a tiny map will usually force you to go to war a lot earlier than you may be used to. It's a good way for builder-types and non-ancient warmongerers to get used to ancient warfare. You COULD avoid war if you wanted to, but then you'll have to give in to those "outrageous AI" demands. Especially when starting next to the Zulu, do not reject those demands unless you're prepared for war.

I doubt you're getting worse at the game. You've probably developed some tried-and-true strategies (like the REX) that have worked for you time and time again. The key to advancing your Civ skills, IMO, is the ability to be flexible. You must be able to adapt to the situation at hand. I never go into a game with a strategy mapped out. Map out your strategy as you go. If you start in a cramped situation with the Zulus as your neighbor, you need to think military. If you start with neighbors far away and lush land, you need to think expansion.

My suggestion would be to "think outside the box" and tailor your strategy to the game situation rather than trying to tailor the game situation to your preset strategy. You'll be a better player for it (maybe even conquering Emperor level soon!).

Last edited by MotownDennis on 11-08-2004 at 22:34

	12-08-2004 05:09									#22
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thanks for the advice. It's my weekend. So i should have some decent civ playing time.

	12-08-2004 11:25									#23
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new game, I'm doing much better. Although the map may be more to my advantage. random civs again. tiny map, but this time archipelago. tiny archipelago is best of both worlds (at least this game). close enough to make contact with curraghs, but the added security of having the continent yourself. I was lucky to start on a decent sized island. I did not restart at all, I finallly got a good start. I have no luxery resources whatsoever, but I have done pretty good on strategic resources finally. No rivers though, so I was unable to build Hoover Dam.

I'm still not in the tech lead though . England amazingly has great research. They were ahead of me the entire game. And they are very reluctant to trade me anything. Many techs I got through the Koreans. But I managed to build the U.N. But the germans voted for themselves, so it looks like I'll have to build the spaceship.

Not too much war in this game, mostly a builder game. Though the germans are being arseholes. They are in a polite mood one moment, then they attack me the next. They land some ancient cavalry in my land. I notice they are polite- I trade some techs with them first , then I ask them to withdraw. Of course they declare war on me. Germany is like this every game. Germans are just *******s

Any suggestions for the space race? English are likely to get all the required techs before me. I'll have to attack a Korean city in order to get uranium (the one that is just south of my single city on a small island- which is sitting on my horses- that's the reason I put it there). I don't have sewer systems yet . I usually can trade for by this point, but no dice. English won't trade **** with me. They will probably get the SETI program and the internet as well . Space race can be dicey if I can't catch up in tech. I may just launch an attack instead. I should have researched modern armour tech before space race. I don't know what I was thinking.

screenshot. Again an ICS strategy. My production wasn't great until I built factories and coal plants. One city was able to build iron works.

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	13-08-2004 02:10									#24
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mother****er!!

2 turns before I was set to finish my final spaceship part I lose via cultural victory! Which is bullshit. I thought in order to win via cultural victory (single city in this case) you had to have at least twice the cuture of the second leading cultural nation. WTF is up with that? I would have won too . England was building their last 3 spaceship parts, but I only had 1 to go, with only 2 turns to completeion. But London, England hit 20,000 cultural. My capitol had over 14,000 culture.

I was so close to the end, I didn't even bother checking the F9 screen. I think I had enough military to conquer London (they were fairly close), and the transports to get there. Along with massive battleship and bomber support. I built these forces up in case I thought I couldn't get the space ship win. I could reload, but I don't do that anymore. I haven't reloaded at all the past couple of game.

	13-08-2004 02:29									#25
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In any map setting of an epic game, you can win with 20K in one city. The twice the second place civ is only for empire culture. This is different for different sized maps.

	13-08-2004 03:51									#26
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Interesting because in one of my recent monarch standard size map games I had 16k culture in one city and the ai had 20k in his. Yet he did not win a cultural victory. I ultimately lost that game to his spaceship victory.

	13-08-2004 06:10									#27
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It does require that you have enabled winning by cultural score.

	13-08-2004 20:51									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident mother****er!! 2 turns before I was set to finish my final spaceship part I lose via cultural victory! Which is bullshit. I thought in order to win via cultural victory (single city in this case) you had to have at least twice the cuture of the second leading cultural nation. WTF is up with that? I would have won too . England was building their last 3 spaceship parts, but I only had 1 to go, with only 2 turns to completeion. But London, England hit 20,000 cultural. My capitol had over 14,000 culture. I was so close to the end, I didn't even bother checking the F9 screen. I think I had enough military to conquer London (they were fairly close), and the transports to get there. Along with massive battleship and bomber support. I built these forces up in case I thought I couldn't get the space ship win. I could reload, but I don't do that anymore. I haven't reloaded at all the past couple of game.

Ouch!

	13-08-2004 21:52									#29
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Dissident

I have a question regarding the minimod you used for the last game. I think you used the SnOOpy(G or X) minimod, if this is correct, where did you find one that is current with C3C?

The reason I ask is that I love the graphics on that mod, but I dislike not being able to see any of the new nations on it.

-Ron

	13-08-2004 21:58									#30
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Search the c3 files subforum.