12-08-2004 08:10									#1
	My Detailed Analysis of the SMAC Factions Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This is my review of all the factions of SMAC (no new factions), and I tried to develop a system of measuring and weighing their powers and advantages side-by-side.

Well here are my results.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faction Comparisions of SMAC

Rating System

The rating system is based on several principals. Including:
1. Economic Strength: The Faction's relative ability to amass energy efficiently and effectivly
2. Economic Flexibility: How freely the Faction can spend energy in any way they desire
3. Military Strength: The relative ability of the Faction to have a strong army
4. Offensive Flexibility: How easily the Faction can use the basic strategies to win
5. Defensive Flexibility The Faction's innate ability to counter the strategies enemies use
Each rating has a maximum of four points, and a minimum of one

Human Hive

Economic Strength: 1/4;
-2 Energy, and 0 Efficiency from Hive Standard SE (PoliceState/Planned) is too large an obstacle.
Economic Flexibility: 2/4;
Having +2 Police is helpful in reducing drones, reducing dependance on Psych Facilities and financing. Lack of Economic Strength makes stockpiling energy for probes difficult, though.
Military Strength: 4/4;
The Hive is a war-machine. Enough said. Having +2 Industry makes it too easy to pump out an army. Also, +2 Support frees up minerals to build things like Command Centers etc (because they wont be wasting minerals and cash on PsychFacilities.
Offensive Flexibility: 3/4;
Production Strength aside, Hive still can tech reasonably, making them reasonable tech-fighters. They can mass easily, and build morale facilities in a snap, and having +1 Growth allows them to go Green and mass mindworms without severe reprecussions. Their only weakness is their inability to probe-rape due to the economic penalties.
Defensive Flexibility: 3/4;
Free Perimeter Defense at every Base makes it very easy to fend of swarms of enemies. They also have no weaknesses in countering other strategies either. Their only potential weakness is that they tech reasonably. Which is not the same as teching on-par. If an enemy starts to mass lots of units superior to the Hive, Hive has a difficult time ahead of itself. Keeping up to speed on tech and morale bonuses is key.
Overall: 14/20;
Hive has great strengths but also great weaknesses. Compensating for weakness will help to give them an edge. Since they have high growth, pumping out tons of colony pods helps compensate for a weak economy.

Peacekeeping Forces

Economic Strength: 3/4;
Having no innate penalties aside from a measily -1 Efficiency, and 1 Talent every 4 citizens (enabling an easier golden age) gives them a solid economic base.
Economic Flexibility: 4/4;
As said above, no economic penalties, no psych penalties, no research penalties makes economy in this Faction very organic and adaptable. Extra Talents takes off some pressure towards psych also.
Military Strength: 2/4;
Normaly, Peacekeepers are never considered as combatants. But the question is: what's stopping them? No inherent morale, tech, or production penalties lets them assemble an army just as good as the next faction. The only realistic drawback is the -2 Support from Democracy, and the inability to go Police State.
Offensive Flexibility: 3/4;
Pouring energy into research can yield some nice weapons and armor for you. Being naturaly disposed for Democracy also lets the Green Mind Worm strategy work better as well. Probe-rapping is a snap as well with getting more energy back from funding psych and psychfacilities. The only strategy they cannot do so well is massing; not enough Support. They have no military strengths or weaknesses, so they can choose any mode of combat that suits them.
Defensive Flexibility: 2/4;
As said before, they have no military strengths and weaknesses, so they can adapt their army to counter whatever the enemy has. But a catch-all defense cannot defend well against a focued offensive strategy.
Overall: 14/20;
The Peacekeepers are probably the most balenced of all the factions. But the amount of flexibility this faction has must be used to adapt to situations. If fighting a masser, assemble anti-mass defenses, and stop once the war ends so you dont waste resources on things that won't help you in the next war.

The Lord's Believers

Economic Strength: 2/4;
The Believers have an average economy. Nothing good or bad about it.
Economic Flexibility: 2/4;
Average economy, but bellow-average economic flexibility. They are very bad techers, so they must either pour energy into research, or get tech from other factions. Stockpiling energy for probe-rapping is the most effective use of their economy.
Military Strength: 4/4;
Like the Hive, the Believers are a very militaristic Faction. 25% offense makes even the most obsolete unit contribute something to the fight (and you're going to have lots of them, from +2 Support), and +3 Probe renders you immune to probe teams. But since much of their tech is bad, and their army obsolete, they depend lots on probes to acquire better weapons, +3 Probe helps this.
Offensive Flexibility: 2/4;
The Believers are the best massers in the game, and the second-best probe-rappers. Unfortunately, those two things are all they have going for them. Forget about teching, and Mindworms (-1 Planet sharply reduces the military apps of Green).
Defensive Flexibility: 2/4;
Their defensive capabilities are specialized at handling enemy probe teams, and masses of other units. But They are less able to defend against Mind Worms, due to their offense bonus going out the window in PSI Combat. Building Morale facilites helps against Mind Worms, but it will not help them against high-tech enemies (probes can help somewhat in that respect, though).
Overall: 12/20;
Believers are a good faction, but their weaknesses will be the death of them if not compensated for. Reverse-engineering is your best friend, letting you build units you haven't researched. Massing units that are technologicaly up-to-date is critical to victory. Probes also help to wreak havoc on enemy bases.

Morgan Industries

Economic Strength: 4/4;
Need I say more? +1 Economy and extra commerce puts their economy way ahead of everyone else.
Economic Flexibility: 3/4;
Another reason to love Morganites. Their cash can be spent anywhere. Although it is usualy better to stick to Economy to supply your probes with more mind-control power.
Military Strength: 1/4;
The Morganites have the worst military, period. Having a support penalty so early into the game affects even your ability to make formers, let alone combat units. Their energy output is their only saving grace, here. They can use probe teams to capture units and bases, and giving more cash to psych helps compensate for -5 Police. And, of course, hurrying production lets you quickly assemble an army. Their economy is their only weapon, and if it fails, Morgan Industry fails.
Offensive Flexibility: 1/4;
The probe-rape strategy and the odd high-tech units are the only thing they're good at. Their -1 Support makes massing nigh impossible, -3 Population limits make it hard for Green. Their best strategy is to always upgrade units when Morgan finds new tech. And mind-control is always important (providing they stick to bases, because units cost minerals).
Defensive Flexibility: 4/4;
On defense, however, they are much stronger. Their robust economy pays off here, when they hurry defensive structures, and upgrade units to handle specific situations. Mass can be matched by Perimeter Defense, High Morale, and good armor. Mind Worms by Hypnotic Trance and Empath Song. Probes by Polymorphic Encryption, etc.
Overall: 13/20;
The Morganites have lots of energy, but not a lot of minerals. They must compensate for this imbalence and economize their production. Quickly building colony pods and expanding helps get rid of support problems (like it gets rid of economy problems for the Hive). Staying on top economicaly is the way they win.

Gaia's Stepdaughters

Economic Strength: 2/4;
Their economy is decent, but lacks ability to improve (being unable to Free Market or Wealth effectivly). Having +2 Efficiency helps them keep whatever energy they find, though. Being unable to nerve-staple also reduces the risk of sanctions.
Economic Flexibility: 3/4; How they spend their energy is entirely up to them as well. +2 Efficiency keeps them from wasting too much energy on psyche later in the game as well.
Military Strength: 3/4;
Their niche is PSI Combat. +1 Planet lets them pull an army out of the air that has 10% offense bonus (to say nothing of Green). The Mind worms get exclusive offensive/defensive bonuses, nullify advanced weapons/armor, and never go obsolete. Unfortanetly, -1 Morale makes going to war difficult early on.
Offensive Flexibility: 2/4;
Gaian warfare revolves around Mind Worms, but they are in no way limited to that. They can mass (WITHOUT inefficiency), they can tech, all that jazz. But they are not very good at mind-control, because they can't go Free Market. Wealth can fix this, but the -3 Morale is the incarnation of their other weakness. Gaian morale is below-average, making them less able to fight. But Morale and Lifecycle facilities are easy to come by, so it can be compensated.
Defensive Flexibility: 3/4;
The -1 Morale penalty hits Gaia's Stepdaughters harder when defending, because Mind Worms are bad on defense. The Gaians must stay on the attacking side, in order for their Planet Offense bonus to work to their advantage. This helps counter techers, and high Morale fighters. Mass is the hardest strategy to deal with in PSI, because you can't kill them all off in one offensive turn. Otherwise, SE improving Morale and Support helps counter it.
Overall: 13/20;
Despite Morale and Economy issues, one of the greatest benefits of this faction is +2 Efficiency. It allows them to: go Police State without succumbing to inefficiency, save more energy, and recieve less drones. And +3 Planet lets them use up more minerals than any other faction without having fungal bloom problems. Not the best warriors, but built for long-term prosperity.

Spartan Federation

Economic Strength: 2/4;
Nothing special here.
Economic Flexibility: 2/4;
Sparta has +1 Police. Police State brings this to +3. Spartans don't waste a joule on drones and psych, freeing up more for Research. Which is important because their industry must never be wasted on building mediocore units. They are dependant on research, this limits their flexability.
Military Strength: 2/4;
While a warrior Faction such as this should get a 4, Sparta's -1 Industry is a huge blow to them. They, like the Morganites, stress quality over quantity. Via Morale and Reasearch, at the expense of unit numbers.
Offensive Flexibility: 3/4;
This is where their +2 Morale pays off. Morale affects everything (notwithstanding probe-team PSI Combat) in battle. With it, you have stronger Mind Worms, larger modifiers on your flashy new weapons and armor. Massing is more difficult to do with Spartans, but going Power lets you have a huge army of strong fighters. Also devoting more to Research makes mind-control almost as difficult as it is with the Hive.
Defensive Flexibility: 4/4;
Also, +2 Morale on SE allows +1 Morale on defense, making defense even easier an issue for Sparta. Since Morale affects all forms of combat, they can defend easily against all strategies.
Overall: 12/20; Spartan Federation is a more difficult faction to run, because of -1 Industry. Their fighters are slowly-produced, but versatile. Take Santiago's quote to heart: Supperior training and supperior weaponry will make them invincible.

University of Planet
Economic Strength: 2/4;
Their economy is average. But since its advantages are energy-oriented, it is encouraged they improve their economy.
Economic Flexibility: 2/4;
The University has the worst drone problems, and the best Research rate. They will spend more on psych than any other faction (Unless they go Police State, where they have -2 Efficiency). Since Research is their greatest advantage, funding for Economy would decrease because of drones.
Military Strength: 3/4;
They have no military drawbacks, while still having state-of-the-art weapontry. They can have technology that are usualy at least 1 generation ahead of most armies, which makes a large combat difference.
Offensive Flexibility 4/4;
Given their high-tech, they use this advantage to the fullest. They have more than versatility; they have high-tech versatility. They recive High Morale, Polymorphic Enc., Hypnotic Trance etc. before everyone else does, giving them a huge combat edge.
Defensive Flexibility 2/4;
As mentioned before, University military is advanced, but it sometimes takes time making the prototypes, and building the new facilities, their bases must catch up with their research. The University's glaring weakness is their vulnerability to probe teams. They can be foiled easily via mind-control, tech downloads, and reverse-engineering.
Overall: 13/20;
The University is the most advanced of the Factions, but, like the Believers, they MUST get around their weaknesses before they can excell.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I tried to be as unbiased as I could. (I am biased towards the Gaians, and against the Morgans, incidently).
If you have any questions, critiques, comments, concerns, etc. Tell me them.

	12-08-2004 08:27									#2
	Support Apolyton

Planet rating does not effect minerals that you can use before you risk a pop, it merely lessens the chance of a pop once you go over the limit. Pops are not a bad thing though, the more you have the less of a problem future industrial growth will be apparently.


check out vels guide if you want to see where all the factions stand.

	12-08-2004 08:44									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

The University, Spartans, and Believers all have Economic Strength equal to that of the Gaians? The +2 Effic is nice, but that would fall under flexibility. The Gaians do suffer some from no easy energy early on, just like the Hive, but less severly.

The University does not have drone problems. They receive 1 extra drone at size 4, and that's the end of it. ICS to keep your cities small and use specialists when they grow, and you'll never notice. Furthermore, the Uni is the only faction that can really capitalize on the Virtual World. Build that and you can almost ignore drones, especially in new bases. Everyone else needs an 8-row facility in each base that is to benefit from the VW.

The Uni is also not particularly vulnerable to probe teams - their probe defenders work as well as any 0 probe rating faction's. Their units and bases can be mind-controlled more easily if their probe defenders are destroyed, which is a weakness, but is a minor one. Probe teams usually survive operations such as stealing techs anyway, and even if they don't, the 3 mineral rows are well spent. They almost always succeed regardless of probe rating, unless the base has been tech-probed recently.


Summary of strengths/weaknesses:

Hive:
Excellent production, excellent drone control, easy base defense
Difficulty getting the crucial techs for pumping up energy production - Industrial Automation and Environmental Economics.

Peacekeepers:
Easiest to get Golden Ages, good at grabbing the governorship and even diplomatic victory. Few drone problems, even with bureaucracy
Negative efficiency stings, and makes early Planned very difficult

Believers:
Excellent offense, great support for former hordes or military hordes, as the situation dictates, ability to become immune to mind control
Difficulty researching anything worth producing early on; this becomes trivial later with Free Market, boreholes, or probe raping

Morganites:
The best raw energy production, modest early boost from +100 ECs, ability to get the magical +1 energy/tile and +4 effic simultaneously for tremendous economic flexibility
Difficulty fielding many units, low hab limits

Gaians:
Good early exploration if native life can be found, starts with ability to make Formers, efficiency is always nice. Tendency to be in perpetual pop booms with Demo/Planned/creche (also yielding +4 effic in bases)
Low energy output until boreholes come, which means the tech for boreholes comes late.

Spartans:
Best defense in the field, easier to get elite units (which are much cheaper than faster chassis), minor boost of free prototypes
Bad production: -INDUSTRY compounded with the inability to use Wealth. All their advantages mean nothing when not fighting (except the +POLICE, but using that requires even more defensive units, and the effic hit from Police State really hurts)

Uni:
Absolute best early research by far: the compounded effects of ++RESEARCH, free net nodes, and low early tech costs gives them a boost as strong as +260% tech rate early on! Ability to quickly shoot to IA and start running good SE, or grab nonlinear mathematics and start shooting, depending on circumstances. A free, otherwise expensive facility that every builder will want anyway. Can capitalize on the VW; combine this with the PTS and that's the game.
Has trouble in diplomacy with AIs, since he is often perceived as waiting to be carved up, with a power rating inflated by tech. A minor vulnerability to probing. Overall, Zak has very few weaknesses, but really only one strength (but it's a strong strength!)

	12-08-2004 11:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Heh, The Virtual World thing again. I love how Univ fanatics bring up that little miracle. But the truth is they suffer more from drones than ANY other faction. VWorld brings their problems up to par with the other factions, but ONLY in the early-mid game. Also, Univ gets a drone for EVERY 4 citizens, not AFTER 4 citizens.

Univ with VWorld gets (-2 + population/4) drones. Other faction get 0 drones.
Base Size 4: UnivVWorld has -1 drones. Other still has 0.
Base Size 8: " " 0 drones. Other " " 0.
Base Size12: " " 1 drones. Other " " 0.
Base Size16: " " 2 drones. Other " " 0.

This is not even including the drones they naturaly get from the difficulty level, and the bureaucracy. Also, the other faction would have probably gotten a Rec Common and Hologram Theatre, putting them at -4 at 16. Univ? 0 At 16. THAT'S 4 EXTRA DRONES.

Now, you can tell me about how easy that is to counter, but you need a solution either way. Those 4 drones (or 3 or 2 depending on ur base size) are an issue the anonymous faction will never have to deal with. Most factions get Holo Theatres everywhere later on anyways, giving them -2 drones at size 8, while Univ gets 0 with a HTheatre at 8. This is without figuring the drones from difficulty, by the way.

And the University is the most vulnerable to probe teams out of all the factions. Halved costs to mind-control your bases. You have a guard? I'll send 2 probes. I'll send 2 probes with +1 or +2 Morale. Go ahead and add 3 rows of minerals to all your productions to compensate for your weakness (which would be the equivalent of at least -2 Industry), I'll destroy them anyways. And Having +Probe does help you steal tech, btw, with morale and success %.

And about Gaian economy vs. Spartan, Univ, and Believers do have the same economic power as the Gaians. All have standard energy rates. Gaians cant do FMarket, tru, but Spartans can't do Wealth, and have to be preoccupied with Research Power, Believers with Economy, and University with drone prevention (drones cost money, no matter which way you deal with them).

Also, Efficiency is an attribute of economic strength (not flexibility) because it is part of the initial calculation before it is divied up into ECON/RESEARCH/PSYCH. Having certain dispositions for Drones, Research, and Cash needs affects flexibility. Sure, Efficiency affects drones in the mid-late game, but it has a more far-reaching impact on the amount of energy actualy acquired (Strength) vs where it is actualy spent (Flexibility).

And in defense of the Gaian inability to go Free Market, one time using the Peacekeepers, I was in the late game, and coming up on the final stretch. My Net income and Breakthrough rate was WORSE using FMARKET than using GREEN (my other SE was Demo/Knowledge/TControlXpenalty). That's not splitting hairs, not if you're accusing the Gaian's of an inferior economy. None of my ratings are measurements of any specific time in the game, but rather their consistent performance over the entire game.

Whoha, thanks for pointing the fungbloom thing out. I knew that, but I was focusing more on it in relation to eco-damage. Gaians suffer less from that. Who's Vel, and where's his guide?

And how did you come up with a 260% tech bonus for the Univ? Can I have a breakdown? Here's mine:
x= energy at each base going towards research

3x/2 (from the netnode) multiplied by 6/5 (the +2 research) = 18x/10 = 180%

Last edited by Quezacotl06 on 12-08-2004 at 11:32

	12-08-2004 13:59									#5
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Quezacotl06 Heh, The Virtual World thing again. I love how Univ fanatics bring up that little miracle. But the truth is they suffer more from drones than ANY other faction. VWorld brings their problems up to par with the other factions, but ONLY in the early-mid game. Also, Univ gets a drone for EVERY 4 citizens, not AFTER 4 citizens. Univ with VWorld gets (-2 + population/4) drones. Other faction get 0 drones. Base Size 4: UnivVWorld has -1 drones. Other still has 0. Base Size 8: " " 0 drones. Other " " 0. Base Size12: " " 1 drones. Other " " 0. Base Size16: " " 2 drones. Other " " 0. This is not even including the drones they naturaly get from the difficulty level, and the bureaucracy. Also, the other faction would have probably gotten a Rec Common and Hologram Theatre, putting them at -4 at 16. Univ? 0 At 16. THAT'S 4 EXTRA DRONES. Now, you can tell me about how easy that is to counter, but you need a solution either way. Those 4 drones (or 3 or 2 depending on ur base size) are an issue the anonymous faction will never have to deal with. Most factions get Holo Theatres everywhere later on anyways, giving them -2 drones at size 8, while Univ gets 0 with a HTheatre at 8. This is without figuring the drones from difficulty, by the way. And the University is the most vulnerable to probe teams out of all the factions. Halved costs to mind-control your bases. You have a guard? I'll send 2 probes. I'll send 2 probes with +1 or +2 Morale. Go ahead and add 3 rows of minerals to all your productions to compensate for your weakness (which would be the equivalent of at least -2 Industry), I'll destroy them anyways. And Having +Probe does help you steal tech, btw, with morale and success %. And about Gaian economy vs. Spartan, Univ, and Believers do have the same economic power as the Gaians. All have standard energy rates. Gaians cant do FMarket, tru, but Spartans can't do Wealth, and have to be preoccupied with Research Power, Believers with Economy, and University with drone prevention (drones cost money, no matter which way you deal with them). Also, Efficiency is an attribute of economic strength (not flexibility) because it is part of the initial calculation before it is divied up into ECON/RESEARCH/PSYCH. Having certain dispositions for Drones, Research, and Cash needs affects flexibility. Sure, Efficiency affects drones in the mid-late game, but it has a more far-reaching impact on the amount of energy actualy acquired (Strength) vs where it is actualy spent (Flexibility). And in defense of the Gaian inability to go Free Market, one time using the Peacekeepers, I was in the late game, and coming up on the final stretch. My Net income and Breakthrough rate was WORSE using FMARKET than using GREEN (my other SE was Demo/Knowledge/TControlXpenalty). That's not splitting hairs, not if you're accusing the Gaian's of an inferior economy. None of my ratings are measurements of any specific time in the game, but rather their consistent performance over the entire game. Whoha, thanks for pointing the fungbloom thing out. I knew that, but I was focusing more on it in relation to eco-damage. Gaians suffer less from that. Who's Vel, and where's his guide? And how did you come up with a 260% tech bonus for the Univ? Can I have a breakdown? Here's mine: x= energy at each base going towards research 3x/2 (from the netnode) multiplied by 6/5 (the +2 research) = 18x/10 = 180%

The turn advantage that the University has by being the most tech advantaged faction is enormous. The drone "problem" is also easily solved by simply using specialists, which is a strong strategy even if you don't use it to deal with drones. Drones are an early game problem, so it matters little if the University has a disadvantage once populations begin to reach hab limits. Being the first to get crawlers is much more of an advantage than having an extra drone every 4th population point.

Specialists also help deal with the problems of low efficiency by bypassing them entirely. Allocation can be done simply by changing the types of specialists that you use. B-drones are handled like all drones, just make them specialists. And inefficiency doesn't apply to specialist produced energy eqivalents.

I think that the advantages of running a high efficiency fall fairly equally into each of the categories. Higher efficiency allows a wider horizontal growth in the early game, more concentrated raw energy allocations throughout the game, and higher raw energy yields throughout the game. If you are running FM and using workers almost exclusively, then you are probably going to prefer the savings in your hard earned raw energy totals more than the other advantages. Those who are saddled with low efficiency for whatever reason can reduce much of its negative impact by specializing.

	12-08-2004 16:29									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Interesting that I'm a Uni fanatic... they're a good faction, but hardly my favorite.

From what I've seen, DRONE, 4 cannot give more drones than you have content citizens (1 on Transcend). Therefore, a size 16 Uni base has only 1 extra drone! Test this out if you don't believe me. In any case, if you have only 4 workers in a base, and you have a rec commons and holo theater (through the VW), you have no drones, period.

If you want to mind control a particular base, you can send a few probes to anyone and just spend a little more. And I may not have that many probe defenders around, but I do have sensors and forward troops, placed explicitly to detect probes before they give me problems. I'd have those anyway to watch for invasions. Besides, if you grab a peripheral base, what are you going to do with it? It's not that special, and I might probe-rape you back, before capturing it with my proximity.

+probe may increase your probing success rate, but not by much, and it's usually 100% anyway. If you have a positive probe rating you can give anyone, not just the Uni, trouble.

Early game research with the Uni:
1.2 (++RESEARCH) * 1.5 (net node) * 2 (halved tech cost briefly, decaying to 2/3, then 3/4, etc) = 3.6 times normal (or 260% faster).

As far as economic strength, the Believers can research well enough if they get key techs; 80% isn't a killer later on. When I play the Uni, I rarely spend a drop on psych, and when I do I'm not yet suffering from the drone "problem". In fact, the only time I notice the extra drone is when I have the PTS, and gain 3 drones going from size 3 to 4 (+1 population, lose the PTS effect, gain the Uni penalty).

	12-08-2004 21:22									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Overall a good overview of the things players should know about the factions. Only a few comments and quibbles

1. I would also put the spartans and the believers at the bottom but I have a tough time choosing at all from the other 5. Without doing your step by step- I have a hard time seeing anyone as superior to the UNI or the morganites-- Thats whats implied when you sum the numbers and assign higher values to other factions. But that is a hard argument since I doubt your categories are actually of equivalent weight and value. The fact that I largely agree with your results doesn't make me think that your summing of these particular categories is a particlarly accurate methodology.

2. I quibble with your rankings for the morganites and PKs on two points:

a) economic flexibility-- Demo/Green/wealth-- This allows +2 ECON and +4 efficiency for the morganites-- who else can do this before the future SE choices are available? Also how can the uni get a 2 to the PKs 4 on this measure?-- Uni should get to the key economic techs faster and have earlier crawler availibility-- I believe you overstate the influence of the additionaldrone/talent for these two factions.

b) Military-- I wouldn't go hog wild here but I would give the morganites at least a 2-- Going green allows amassing a worm army ( support free while in fungus)-- and both fundy and Police state are possibilities and running them negates support issues. Plus with lots of cash you can buy your army pretty quickly. Add in relatively high tech which allowed you to give the uni a 3 in this category and I see it hard for the support issue alone to plummet the morganites to a 1.

3. Your rankings make no allowances for map size-- On a huge map, I see the spartans and believers suffering even more while on a tiny map these factions are good, if not preferred. The hive and gaians are pretty flexible. The uni, morganite and Pks can suffer if jammed to close to other factions and attacked before their tech abilities can yield advantages.

4. Overall I think that the scales are fairly subjective in that different players could likely obtain equally supportable results with final scores a point or two higher or lower. Your results reflects the overall pretty good balance of most of the factions. If I were doing the same analysis ( thinking of a map of large or greater), only a little would change. Uni and morganites would each gain a point or two and my reasons would be somewhat different on some occasions.

	13-08-2004 00:11									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Flubber a) economic flexibility-- Demo/Green/wealth-- This allows +2 ECON and +4 efficiency for the morganites-- who else can do this before the future SE choices are available?

Everyone except the Spartans.
Build the HGP, go XXX/Green/Wealth, put 20% in psy. Then build Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest. Go GA and your city get the +2ECON.
Difficult with Police, possible with Frontier, really easy with Demo.

So, let me rephrase your question,
who else can do +2ECON before Hybrid Forests?

	13-08-2004 00:25									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Hybrid forests are fairly expensive, as is wasting money on psych, the Morgans still get a tremendous advantage.

They have 3 settings that are awesome:
+4 econ +2 efficiency(demo/fm/wealth)
+2 econ +4 efficiency(demo/green/wealth)
+2 econ +2 efficiency(fundy/green/wealth)

	13-08-2004 00:55									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Lal's extra talents are very nice, as they allow him to reach GAs practically, and to brush off bureaucracy.

Zak's extra drone is near-trivial, only making the already difficult prospect of GAing near impossible without SP help. Bureaucracy and specialists drown it out, too.

The two are not symmetric, nor are most bonuses and penalties, as you can play to your strengths.


Regarding economic flexibility (before future societies):

The Hive cannot reach +2 econ without GAs. If they do, they don't have +4 effic (Frontier/FM/Wealth + GA)

The Spartans cannot have +2 econ and +4 effic. They can reach +2 econ and +3 effic, however, though not through any of their advantages (Demo/FM/Knowledge)

The Gaians cannot reach +2 econ without GAs, but can reach +4 effic easily. They can have both with GAs.

The PKs have their choice of +2 econ or +4 effic, though with GAs (which aren't so hard for them), they can have +2 econ and +3 effic (Demo/Green/Wealth + GA).

The Believers can have both +2 econ and +4 effic, but only with a GA (Demo/Green/Wealth + GA).

The Uni is just like the Believers on this, except GAs are harder for them.

The Morganites can have both +2 econ and +4 effic from SE choices alone, and are the only SMAC faction to have this ability. Only 4 of the 7 can have both even with GAs.

	13-08-2004 00:57									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Dry Everyone except the Spartans. Build the HGP, go XXX/Green/Wealth, put 20% in psy. Then build Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest. Go GA and your city get the +2ECON. Difficult with Police, possible with Frontier, really easy with Demo. So, let me rephrase your question, who else can do +2ECON before Hybrid Forests?

Since we were talking about economic FLEXIBILITY, police or frontier wouldn't work to get the needed +4 Efficiency. Also -- how exactly are the Hive going to get to those levels of efficiency EVER? Did you miss where I said +4 Efficiency and +2 Econ? Since if we are talking just +2 econ, the spartans can get there as well and actually come close to both in certain SE configurations

If you are going to give a smartass rephrasing-- get it right--+2 Econ alone is easy if you can run FM-- but the FM has its own pros and cons of course. The attraction of the morganites is the ability to get +2 econ and +4 efficiency with no police penalty, wastage on psych and whole maintaining a positive planet rating

Actually I intentionally did not go into the GA issue in the prior post but they favor the morganites more than anyone since the morganites can GA better than anyone.

	13-08-2004 01:15									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thanks Chaos

You said better what I was trying to say. Its the EFFORTLESSNESS of attaining these preferred economic settings that are the Morganites advantage. I acknowledge their corresponding disadvantage when we start talking +6 Growth-- here its the morganites that have a harder time doing what others can do effortlessly with demo/planned creche ( yes the Hive has the same disdadvantage)

My biggest complaint about the morganites has always been the Hab limits and growth. the other problems

Support-- not an issue use extra cash to crawl another mine
No planned-- bigger problem-- you can compensate for the industry somewhat with extra cash

But growth is the issue for the morganites-- ICS solves some of it but it is such a pain to have ample food and still not be able to use the GOOD specialists without a hab complex

	13-08-2004 01:33									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Since we were talking about economic FLEXIBILITY, police or frontier wouldn't work to get the needed +4 Efficiency.

Right, my comment about police and frontier was about achieving GA, not about the +2ECON, +4EFFIC.

quote: Also -- how exactly are the Hive going to get to those levels of efficiency EVER?

You are right. I forgot the Hive (and the PK). I'm not used to Yang, cause I have played him only once.

quote: Did you miss where I said +4 Efficiency and +2 Econ?

No. Same comment as above, I was talking about GA.

quote: Since if we are talking just +2 econ, the spartans can get there as well and actually come close to both in certain SE configurations If you are going to give a smartass rephrasing-- get it right--+2 Econ alone is easy if you can run FM-- but the FM has its own pros and cons of course.

Same comment as above, I was talking about GA.

quote: The attraction of the morganites is the ability to get +2 econ and +4 efficiency with no police penalty, wastage on psych and whole maintaining a positive planet rating

And I fully conquer.
And I added that for me, even if other factions can come close to it without having to wait for future SE, Morganites are able to do it much more earlier.
I fully recognize the attraction, but your sentence was: who else can do this before the future SE choices are available

quote: Actually I intentionally did not go into the GA issue in the prior post but they favor the morganites more than anyone since the morganites can GA better than anyone.

For what use if they have already +2ECO, +4EFFIC? Growth? At what cost?
(These are real questions, I'm not teasing!!!! Please enlight me!)

	13-08-2004 02:09									#14
	Support Apolyton

I don't get how one can "waste money" on Psych. Its often a good investment.

	13-08-2004 02:10									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Morgan can pop boom with GAs, and the additional econ is good if going from 2 to 3, but it we think +4 is the same as +5.

	13-08-2004 02:14									#16
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf I don't get how one can "waste money" on Psych. Its often a good investment.

Psych is good for GA pop booming only, if you have to take 10% or 20% of your economy and devote it to drone control for any individual city, you will be behind those that do not. Facilities and specialists do quite well for drone control for any individual city, but the slider is a global effect deally. Now if it were setable on a per city basis it would be worth while, but some cities won't need the allocation of psych and it is wasted entirely when it could have contributed towards technology or cash.

Also, very early game when you have cities that can't get +2 nut squares you have to crank up psych to get out a cpod on some maps(arid worlds).

	13-08-2004 02:22									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Dry For what use if they have already +2ECO, +4EFFIC? Growth? At what cost? (These are real questions, I'm not teasing!!!! Please enlight me!)

Well

1.Growth-- always needed by the morganites given that Planned is unavailible
2. Higher econ levels can lead to massive increases in the base tile or in the commerce income

Generally I don't GA often with the morganites since the incremental benefits often don't seem to be there. But when you wish to GA their energy levels usually mean they are the easist faction in which to perform it

Personally, My morganites will be in Demo/FM/Wealth or demo/Green/wealth. The first is the obvious premier economic setting-- Just go +4 econ sometime and see how the cash rolls in. . . as bases develop, efficiency becomes more important and worms get tougher-- i really like the green option since you can raise a worm army and explore the world without drone issues. The downside is the growth hit

	13-08-2004 02:29									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf I don't get how one can "waste money" on Psych. Its often a good investment.

I rarely like a psych allocation as anything other than a temporary fix. I can always use 20% more of my energy going into science or generating cash.

I generally find that using specialists is less wasteful for drone control and in fact, many times, the specialists are a good option, even if you have to use doctors, if you consider what you give up in resources to have a doctor versus what you give up by seeing 20% of your energ go poof.

Other players like using psych allocations more than me. I don't say they are wrong . .. I just say its not my playstyle-- I will allocate to psych only for a specific purpose (usually only for a GA), very grudgingly and with the view of ending it as soon as possible.

	13-08-2004 02:58									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Every point of psych that doesn't prevent a drone riot or cause a golden age is wasted entirely. It is near-impossible to prevent many points of psych from being wasted in this way, if you allocate any at all. Furthermore, psych allocation and bureaucracy have negative synergy, so psych and ICS together don't work at all.

Sometimes I will set my psych allocation to 10%, to get an extra talent or two in cities, if I'm not ICSing and want drone control past facilities, and don't want to be perpetually twiddling specialists.

	13-08-2004 03:42									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I am going to make a guess, based on other threads I have read at apolyton, that this is going to turn into a big debate about the UoP and the PKs and about drones and such and blah blah blah.

First, before we go into any calculations, let's assume that you are NOT doing ICSing. Let's assume that your bases are 2-3 squares away, depending on the resources. Basically, each base is probably going to be able to work 13-15 squares.

Okay, so we have the University vs. the Peacekeepers, particularly in drone control. And just for fun, we'll include a faction without any advantages or disadvantages, called the xenobananas. Since this is apolyton we are on, let us also assume we are on Transcend level, at that every citizen after the first is a drone. Let us also assume that each faction has +0 police, and can use one police unit.

Pop 1--University, and the xenobananas, have a normal citizen, Peacekeepers a talent.

Pop 2--Assuming there is a police unit, the University and the xenobananas have two normal citizens and the Peacekeepers with one citizen and one talent.

Pop 3--The University and xenobananas now have two citizens, and one drone, which means drone riots. There are a number of ways this problem could be solved. One worker could be converted to a doctor, a load of energy would be converted to pysch on SE, or the University has the Human Genome Project. Just to narrow the gap, let's give the University the Human Genome. Now the University has one talent, one drone, and one worker. Mean while, without the Human Genome, the Peacekeepers have the same standings, one drone, one worker, one talent.

Pop 4--This is where the University runs into a problem. Normally, a faction, like the xenobananas, with a police unit, would have two workers and two drones, but because the university has a drone every four citizens, now they have three drones, and one citizen. But because they have the Human Genome, this makes it a Talent and still three drones. Big whoop. Okay, so let's help them some more and give them the Virtual World. This brings it up to one talent, two citizens, and one drone. As for the peacekeepers, they have one talent, one worker, and two drones. Not bad considering they don't have any SPs.

Pop 5--Univeristy, with their two SPs, now have one talent, two citizens, and two drones. Xenobananas have two citizens and three drones, and the lucky Peacekeepers have the same, WITHOUT any SPs.

Pop 6--University has

As you can see from here, even with two SPs, the amount of drones the University will get will only increase, and the amount of talents the PKs will get will only increase. So let's skip pops 6-13 and go to 14, the normal population limit for factions in the mid-game, except the Peacekeepers, but to keep it even let's just say that the University and the Peacekeepers, and the Xenobananas all are at pop 14.

The University will have one talent, two citizens, and 11 drones. Can you say 'Drone Riots'?

The Xenobananas will have two citizens, and 12 drones.

And the Peacekeepers will have two talents, two citizens, and 10 drones.

While there is not much of a difference, keep in mind that the University has the advantage of two SPs, essentially three less drones. Without these SPs, the University would have only one citizen and 13 drones, three more than the PKs. Let's assume that those 3 drones are taken out by three doctors. Estimating that each square produces 3 energy, that is nine less energy per base that the University is getting. Five less for labs, and four less for economy.

Assuming that there is a rec commons, hologram theatre, and a research hospital at the base, there will be two talents, 7 citizens, two drones, and three doctors, just to make ends meet. That is a total maintenance of 7. Not to mention the 4 less energy for economy from the doctors.

The Peackeepers, on the other hand, can go up to population 16, and with only three doctors and the same facilities, and have no drone riots. That is two more workers, for the same costs, an additional 6 energy, if each square produces three. To make the University go that high in population, a total of five doctors would be needed.

If a University Base and Peacekeeper base were compared, at pop 16, and each with one police unit, this is what you would find.

To ensure no drone riots, the University base would have to have five doctors, a rec commons, a hologram theatre, a research hospital, and a hab dome to get to 16 pop. If each square produced 3 energy, and there were no other specialists except the 5 doctors, that would be 33 energy, 17 towards labs, and 16 towards economy. With the research lab and FREE network node, the total lab output would be 29. After maintenance, the total economic output would be 1, if you include the maintanence from the hab dome and hab complex.

With a peacekeeper base at pop 16, THREE doctors, a rec commons, a hologram threatre, and a research hospital would be needed to maintain no drone riots. Assuming the other 13 citizens are workers, that is a total economic output of 39, 20 directed to labs and 19 directed to economy. With the research lab, there would be a total economic output of 25. If a network node were built, such as in a University base, that total would increase to 35. The total economic output, if you calculate with the maintenance of the hab complex (but not the hab dome this time) and the network node, and the three other facilities, the output comes out to 9.

The peacekeepers, in essence are getting 6 more energy to labs and 8 more to economy. While as the base grew to a population such as 20 or higher, the drone problem of the University would become irrellevant, but until then, the maintenance costs and/or energy lost to doctors and specialists lowers the lab output, and ulitmately the flexibility of the University. Of course, this data is assuming that the specialists the University uses are only doctors, not empaths or transcendi, which would actually increase the lab or energy output. Ultimately, the drones are a huge disadvantage. Can they be fixed? Yes, very easily, but at the cost of maintenance and other things. Chances are these costs won't affect the game to much. And chances are, either way, the University will always have a good tech lead against all the other factions, but if nothing else convinces you, consider this. While the drones can be fixed, just imagine the economic potential, particularly later in the game, of a faction other than the University, say such as the PEACEKEEPERS, had built the Human Genome and the VW. A lot of energy would be saved. True, in the beginning of the game, the University may have twice as many techs as everyone else, but once other factions build network nodes, and do knowledge and cybernetic, those advantages to fade away, and the disadvantages are all that are left, in which case, a faction like the Peacekeepers is much more practical. Everything comes at a cost. The bigger the thing, the bigger the cost. Small advantages, while small, have one distinct advantage, small disadvantages, an advantage in itself that is much greater than any advantage ever will be...

	13-08-2004 03:53									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Why did you stop comparing the Uni to the xenobananas? Of course the PKs have it good for drone control. The Uni, however, is just 1 drone behind the xenobananas, a minor penalty that becomes trivial with ICS.

	13-08-2004 04:22									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Every point of psych that doesn't prevent a drone riot or cause a golden age is wasted entirely. It is near-impossible to prevent many points of psych from being wasted in this way, if you allocate any at all. Furthermore, psych allocation and bureaucracy have negative synergy, so psych and ICS together don't work at all. Sometimes I will set my psych allocation to 10%, to get an extra talent or two in cities, if I'm not ICSing and want drone control past facilities, and don't want to be perpetually twiddling specialists.

Oh yea thats another use, right after you build the cloning vats, jacking up the psych allocation will save you atleast 30 minutes per turn going through all the damned rioting from growth.

	13-08-2004 05:18									#23
	Remove this text

Very true Chaos Theory, but keep in mind that the arguement was more in comparing the flexibility of the PKs to the University. Compared to a control, no, the University isn't that bad off, considering that every citizen after the first is a drone, it's kind of hard to get worse. Mind you, the test that I did wasn't really fair, but it was to justify the advantages of the PKs, that was all...

	13-08-2004 09:58									#24
	Remove this text

Nice analysis commy that totally ignores the effects of faster research getting to crawlers, gene splicing, eco eng etc.

If the uni doesn't get some advantage from its research speed, of course they will lag-- The thing is the uni will get some research advantage

	13-08-2004 13:11									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Univ gets more drones. They always cost them. You need to give % to psych, draining ur labs and econ. OR you could build facilities to reduce drones (costing your econ). Or you could use police SE, reducing ur efficiency (which further affects your labs and eco). Or u can us specialists. Which take food and minerals and generaly slows the effectiveness of the base just trying to keep it from revolting. Supply Crawlers are an artificial solution, because all factions can have crawlers, PLUS HAVING WORKERS TO PRODUCE BACK AT HOME.

Drones always cost them. Even one drone costs 2 per turn (at least) just to keep it from starting a riot.

	13-08-2004 16:25									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't you realize you can prevent drones with productive specialists?

Size 14 base - 3 workers and 11 specialists. That leaves only 3 possible drones. Assume they're all superdrones.

A rec commons is enough to handle two of them. One superdrone left.

Here are the options for taking care of it:
4 psych from specialists (maybe thinkers or empaths), and probably boosted by a tree farm or the like
Research hospital
Police (if you can use them)
VW/holo theater
LV if not running FM, but then you can use police, too

Guess how many drones a non-uni faction would have in a base with 3 workers and 11 specialists? Still 3. Depending on the level of bureaucracy, a non-uni might have one fewer superdrone, but facilities and police are blind to that.

The Uni's extra drone really doesn't hurt very much at all, because it only arrives at size 4 (that is, not in the early game), and because allocating specialists steps on drones.

Specialists, though they don't produce food or minerals, are nonetheless an excellent option, as they produce significant amounts of energy, without efficiency losses.

The extra drones do not always cost the University.

	13-08-2004 17:32									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Probe-rapping is a snap

It's like when probes start singing/talking rap?

	13-08-2004 19:23									#28
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Quezacotl06 Univ gets more drones. They always cost them. You need to give % to psych, draining ur labs and econ. OR you could build facilities to reduce drones (costing your econ). Or you could use police SE, reducing ur efficiency (which further affects your labs and eco). Or u can us specialists. Which take food and minerals and generaly slows the effectiveness of the base just trying to keep it from revolting. Supply Crawlers are an artificial solution, because all factions can have crawlers, PLUS HAVING WORKERS TO PRODUCE BACK AT HOME. Drones always cost them. Even one drone costs 2 per turn (at least) just to keep it from starting a riot.

specialists tend to be highly productive. one engineer gives about 5 energy worth of production, thats a sea square that has a tidal harness and FM running AND zero efficiency loss. every specialist except doctors provide excellent energy energy, doctors merely provide decent energy and then its only directed towards psych.

	13-08-2004 20:08									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

chaos

I don't think he's going to understand your point and would probably be shocked to see my bases where I have specialists in use far beyond what I need for drone control for the simple reason that its the best use of a citizen.

he also doesn't seem to want to understand that with any pop boomable faction, its pretty much senseless to grow vertically when horizontal growth is available.

Bottom line for me is that "extra drone" is pretty much irrelevant. It exists and the university would be slightly stronger if it did not but I have no problem handling them--

	13-08-2004 20:31									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, I'm not going to settle for condoning ignorance, so I'll continue to argue with him. I suppose I could show him some examples, though.