13-08-2004 00:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Is there really a tax saving in the first one? Or is it designed to be withdrawn when you have a low income tax year, after being put in after a high income tax year.

Money can only be withdrawn upon retirement. So, really taxes are deferred. However, most people will withdraw less upon retirement than they earn during the working years so, their tax rate might be less in that deferred future.

	13-08-2004 00:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I think there'd be a psychological barrier, though. I mean, what's a typical total income tax take as a percentage of income - 25, 30%? Add that back to your income. Are you now more likely to go out and buy a car that has a 40% federal tax on it (in addition to any state and local taxes) because the government needs to make up the revenue? I think most people would rather just not see the money in the first place rather than make 25-30% more and see the cost of every non-essential item skyrocket.

I think people would overcome the psychological barrier fairly quickly. On the other hand, there are those who believe as you do. They think it will encourage people to save more and that this would provide a long term benefit to the economy too.

	13-08-2004 00:50									#33
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by MrFun funny . . . . . . I thought most conservative voters find the Republican Party appealing, because Republicans were suppose to minimize the power of the federal government??

I don't see this as conservative or liberal. It is merely an attempt to come up with a cheaper, simpler method of collecting the taxes the US government is already collecting.

	13-08-2004 00:55									#34
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Agh, god no.

We have NO sales tax period here in Montana and it always annoys the hell out of me when I go out-of-state and get tripped up by those damn things. When the menu says things are a dollar I want them to be a dollar, damn it.

	13-08-2004 00:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun funny . . . . . . I thought most conservative voters find the Republican Party appealing, because Republicans were suppose to minimize the power of the federal government??

Not that I'm a republican, but dont you think that doing away with a large part of the IRS would be minimizing the federal government.

	13-08-2004 01:10									#36
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what about getting rid of the income tax, and cutting spending?

	13-08-2004 01:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Though a question, would there be exemptions to individuals below a certain income level? Or on certain products (like food)? Cause right now I don't pay income taxes cause I'm too damn poor, and while a national sales tax is a neat idea (at least at first) I'm wondering about myself. Would I switch from paying no taxes to having to pay 20% on everything I buy? If you can give the poor some exemption card, then I think its a good idea.

There's no effective way for merchants, etc., who are enforced with collecting this tax, to know what your income situation or classification happens to be.

If you did have some kind of an exemption or classification system, then every time you bought something, the seller would have to verify your status to determine what kind of tax to charge you. Or the alternative is for you to pay the tax you can't afford, then file returns with IRS at the end of the year, so you not only have to keep receipts for literally everything you spend, but you still have to file returns and don't save you or the government any sort of paperwork.

If you have a lot of money, most of that will go to investments (the more income, the higher the investment percentage, since there are only so many Ferraris and Hummers and mistresses you can buy), so you won't get taxed much.

Only consumer spending will be punished, and the people who sell you stuff get to incur additional overheads and accounting costs in doing the government's work for them.

	13-08-2004 01:11									#38
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No politician really wants to cut spending

	13-08-2004 01:14									#39
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quote: Under the Fair Tax plan every consumer will receive a check from the federal government every single month equal to the sales tax that person would be expected to pay on the purchase of the basic necessities of life for that month. The size of the monthly payment will be based on the government's published poverty levels for various sized households.

hahaha this is the most socialistic thing i have ever heard and will need a bureacracy larger than the CIA to figure out. the government is going to figure out for each income group what their necessities are? hahahaah. what a load of crap. you can bet everyone will get underpaid.

	13-08-2004 01:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There's no effective way for merchants, etc., who are enforced with collecting this tax, to know what your income situation or classification happens to be. If you did have some kind of an exemption or classification system, then every time you bought something, the seller would have to verify your status to determine what kind of tax to charge you. Or the alternative is for you to pay the tax you can't afford, then file returns with IRS at the end of the year, so you not only have to keep receipts for literally everything you spend, but you still have to file returns and don't save you or the government any sort of paperwork. If you have a lot of money, most of that will go to investments (the more income, the higher the investment percentage, since there are only so many Ferraris and Hummers and mistresses you can buy), so you won't get taxed much. Only consumer spending will be punished, and the people who sell you stuff get to incur additional overheads and accounting costs in doing the government's work for them.

You don't exempt individuals, you exempt certain items.
All retailers already collect sales tax anyway. How much extra work would it be to collect a higher percentage?

	13-08-2004 01:15									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia From Neal Boortz regarding the poor and the fair tax plan:

Wonder who's paying Boortz? His "analysis" is full of ****.

	13-08-2004 01:24									#42
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quote: Originally posted by pchang You don't exempt individuals, you exempt certain items. All retailers already collect sales tax anyway. How much extra work would it be to collect a higher percentage?

You'd have more audit work because the incentive for a business to deceive its way out of a huge tax bill is increased.

	13-08-2004 01:37									#43
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay Agh, god no. We have NO sales tax period here in Montana and it always annoys the hell out of me when I go out-of-state and get tripped up by those damn things. When the menu says things are a dollar I want them to be a dollar, damn it.

Actually sales taxes are not that bad. I hate it when the sales tags and the end prices don't match but some merchants are kind enough to set it up so the menu prices already include the tax so you know what you're paying for.

However I don't get the rebate thing.... we pay this national sales tax then we get our money back? How does this benefit the feds?

And what happens to taxes like social security? If they take away that tax, we could end up getting more Americans unprepared for their retirements when they're of the age. There's a reason why FDR set up SSA in the first place, you know.

	13-08-2004 01:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus There's a reason why FDR set up SSA in the first place, you know.

And yet he said it was only going to be temporary.

	13-08-2004 01:42									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Reductions in the tax rate -- ideally including reduction of the capital gains tax rate -- are the heart of the Reaganomic, supply-side, tax policy which the Bush team is unwilling to call by those names. The Reagan tax cuts led directly to the decades of prosperity that the Reagan presidency began.

Prosperity at the expense of higher deficit and greater gap between the middle class and the rich. No thanks.

	13-08-2004 02:04									#46
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all of these voodoo tax cuts are just designed to switch the tax burden from the rich to the poor.

	13-08-2004 02:12									#47
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I would be all for a use tax- as long as buying stocks and bonds and all financial transactions were taxed as well- you want to buy stock to make yourself some money? Fine, go ahead- just know there is a 40% fed tax on the sales level of the stock. Ditto for any other financial transation. Tax those at a high rate, and I am all for a use tax as opposed to a sales tax. if they aren´t going to be taxed, then I say HELL NO

	13-08-2004 02:22									#48
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40% tax on sale of shares. You'd have to make 40% growth just to recoup.

	13-08-2004 02:31									#49
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Or move your money offshore, or do it through paper bag business organizations, trusts, or whatever would happen to be tax exempt. The rich never lose at these kind of games.

	13-08-2004 02:33									#50
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This just encourages cross-border sumggling and takes trade away from home businesses. We have 17.5% here, and every neighbourhood has someone selling "cheap stuff from Poland"

-Jam

	13-08-2004 03:15									#51
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There is another reason for such a change, it would help level out competition. Unless tariffs on imports match the combined cost of corporate/business taxes and regulation, foreign businesses have an advantage. Of course, we'd have to calculate the cost of doing business in those other countries to get the total effect, but the current tax structure favors foreign competition.
A sales tax would at least put all products in the market on the same playing field.

	13-08-2004 03:29									#52
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Sales tax

What really is annoying about sales tax in the USA is that it's not added onto the sticker price of stuff you see in the store, so you're always fumbling around with pennies after buying stuff. While I was in Taiwan, everything was priced with tax included, and there wasn't too much of the stupid use of 9's and 8's either.

	13-08-2004 03:35									#53
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i see people consuming less if there was this sales tax. it seems to me that the psychological impact of 30-50% sales tax on something would cause a huge dip in consumption of non essential goods for a short period

	13-08-2004 03:37									#54
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also this affects the poor harder than the rich. if the tax is high on things like food and other things, the disposable income of the poor (who already dont pay income taxes) will become even less and make the people poorer.

	13-08-2004 03:40									#55
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There's also the problem of the transition:

The month of the changeover, stuff will cost higher prices, but people will have only their earlier taxed income to spend.

	13-08-2004 03:50									#56
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yeah. if they did it over a period of 30 years, each year decreasing the income tax and increasing the sales tax it might work

	13-08-2004 04:06									#57
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quote: Unless tariffs on imports match the combined cost of corporate/business taxes and regulation, foreign businesses have an advantage

Um... you neglect to count the taxes and regulations on foriegn businesses. They may have a disadvantage.

	13-08-2004 04:24									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski This just encourages cross-border sumggling and takes trade away from home businesses. We have 17.5% here, and every neighbourhood has someone selling "cheap stuff from Poland" -Jam

Canada have this high sales tax so I doubt we'll be seeing 'cheap stuff from Canada' and there are already 'cheap stuff from Mexico'

	13-08-2004 04:28									#59
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Well, at least Bush is honest, he's now made it absolutely and undeniably clear that he wants to wage a class war against the poor.

Consumption taxes like this affect the poor, who have to spend most of their money, more than the wealthy. The middle class are going to get screwed too.

	13-08-2004 05:27									#60
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why does bush tiptoe around this issue? he should just flat out say he wants to bring back feudalism... let wealthy landowners run things while everyone slaves on the land

but seriously, if you think this is a good idea, chances are you're a moron...