14-08-2004 10:22									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia ? i did a report on this. they dont compete, because there is too much brand name differentiation between products, and very few people decide on price only.

No one cares about brand name recognition. All people care about is convenience. They go to the closest easiest store. Some people go to a cheaper one about a block away maybe, but only if they can save atleast $5 or so. Most people don't even care about saving 5 bucks.

	14-08-2004 10:22									#122
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The sin tax is far more voluntary than the income tax - under no moral theory are you coerced to buy things covered by the sin tax.

	14-08-2004 10:25									#123
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By the same criteria, you're not "coerced" into having a taxable income either.

	14-08-2004 10:26									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Flippity-flop. No doubt they realized how practically and politically stupid the idea was after it was floated.

They like to test the waters a lot on stuff like this that they hope to one day implement. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last.

Regresive taxation is a conservatives wet dream.

	14-08-2004 10:27									#125
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I said under no moral theory are you. There are some that hold that you are coerced into having a taxable income (as it is necessary to survive).

xpost!

	14-08-2004 10:28									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It might not happen instantly, but surely a competitive market will end up reducing prices. If costs decrease there will be more room for competitive pricing.

That only applies to perfectly competitive markets. Most companies are attempting to convert markets into monopolistic competitive markets with brands and advertising (hi Ming ).

	14-08-2004 10:28									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The sin tax is far more voluntary than the income tax - under no moral theory are you coerced to buy things covered by the sin tax.

You're not coerced into buying something. You're coerced into paying the tax. If they really didn't want people to consume the goods they would make the tax much higher. With a moderate tax they can collect.

	14-08-2004 10:29									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No one cares about brand name recognition. All people care about is convenience. They go to the closest easiest store. Some people go to a cheaper one about a block away maybe, but only if they can save atleast $5 or so. Most people don't even care about saving 5 bucks.

That's not true. It depends on your income and the goods you want to buy.

	14-08-2004 10:30									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I said under no moral theory are you.

Why should the goods you prefer be taxed and not the goods that I prefer?

	14-08-2004 10:31									#130
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quote: I said under no moral theory are you. There are some that hold that you are coerced into having a taxable income (as it is necessary to survive).

It's not "necessary to survive" to have a taxable income, just as it's not "necessary to survive" to have to have alcoholic beverages. Both things are nice to have, but not absolutely vital.

As for the no moral theory business, that's nonsense. You can't say anything about every moral theory. Moral theories can be arbitrarily constructed.

	14-08-2004 10:32									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's not true. It depends on your income and the goods you want to buy.

We're talking about gas. You can maybe save $5 by filling up at a cheaper station, but most people won't drive very far to do it.

	14-08-2004 10:32									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're not coerced into buying something. You're coerced into paying the tax.

The point being that a tax on necessary items is more coercive because at least some moral theories hold that one is coerced into buying necessities.

	14-08-2004 10:38									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're not coerced into buying something. You're coerced into paying the tax. The point being that a tax on necessary items is more coercive because at least some moral theories hold that one is coerced into buying necessities.

:shakes head:

Tax is coercive. Unless it is designed not to collect. That's all.

	14-08-2004 10:39									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious We're talking about gas. You can maybe save $5 by filling up at a cheaper station, but most people won't drive very far to do it.

Even if you talk about petrol, I know people who only go to the station of particular Big Oil chains.

	14-08-2004 10:47									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious :shakes head: Tax is coercive. Unless it is designed not to collect. That's all.

Some tax is more coercive than other tax.

Obviously, we have to have tax. Duh.

So what's the point of complaining?

	14-08-2004 10:49									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Even if you talk about petrol, I know people who only go to the station of particular Big Oil chains.

That's true too. Personally I go to the cheapest close place. All this allows gas stations to charge more than they would otherwise be able to. Of course many of them would have to close down if they were under conditions of perfect competition, rational agents and all the rest of it.

	14-08-2004 10:52									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Some tax is more coercive than other tax. Obviously, we have to have tax. Duh. So what's the point of complaining?

I don't think tax is more or less coercive. Some tax is less fair, but it's all coercive.

	14-08-2004 10:59									#138
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quote: Some tax is more coercive than other tax. Obviously, we have to have tax. Duh. So what's the point of complaining?

Sin taxes disproportionately take away money from the poor, who have less to spend, i.e. they more greatly constrain the actions of the people. Thus, they're more coercive than income taxes (if tax rates are set such that the two levies are comparable).

	14-08-2004 11:05									#139
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Poor people don't HAVE to buy the things that are taxed by sin tax. I'm not going to weep because people can't afford a luxury. It's only really a problem if they're unable to afford what they need to live.

	14-08-2004 11:08									#140
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People don't HAVE to have a taxable income to live. Come on Kuci, I've already refuted that argument.

	14-08-2004 11:15									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Poor people don't HAVE to buy the things that are taxed by sin tax. I'm not going to weep because people can't afford a luxury. It's only really a problem if they're unable to afford what they need to live.

Let's say you and I are boozers. The price of booze is $5 a unit or whatever. I'm willing to pay $6 for a unit, and you are willing to pay $7 a unit. A $2 tax is added onto a unit. You will still buy booze and I won't. You have been coerced into paying a tax and I have been coerced into doing something else with my $5. It's got nothing to do with having to pay the tax. Neither one of us has to do anything, but the govt has forced both of us into a different course of action.

edited cause it was screwed up.

	14-08-2004 11:19									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo People don't HAVE to have a taxable income to live. Come on Kuci, I've already refuted that argument.

Only because the federal government provides for them. Even then, it's limited

	14-08-2004 11:20									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let's say you and I are boozers. The price of booze is $5 a unit or whatever. I'm willing to pay $6 for a unit, and you are willing to pay $7 a unit. A $2 tax is added onto a unit. You will still buy booze and I won't. You have been coerced into paying a tax and I have been coerced into doing something else with my $5. It's got nothing to do with having to pay the tax. Neither one of us has to do anything, but the govt has forced both of us into a different course of action.

It hasn't forced you. You decided not to buy the booze. It made certain actions more desirable than others, but it has NOT coerced you into changing your course of action - at worst, it has coerced you into paying some more money.

	14-08-2004 11:27									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It hasn't forced you. You decided not to buy the booze. It made certain actions more desirable than others, but it has NOT coerced you into changing your course of action - at worst, it has coerced you into paying some more money.

That's how you coerce people. You make certain actions more desirable for them. Specifically, some action that benefits you. You can say **** you I will do something irrational because I'm pissed that you are coercing me, but then you can do that anytime someone is coercing you.

	14-08-2004 11:29									#145
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Yep. The IRS can say "pay income taxes or go to prison or make a lot less money." Not paying taxes is still an option, it'd just have a worse consequence.

	14-08-2004 11:59									#146
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I think the govt still takes donations for the national debt. To get money that way they 'influence' people. They don't influence people to pay any tax. People are 'compeled' to pay tax really by definition. It's never a donation.

btw, I think it's horrible that they ask for donations for the national debt.

	14-08-2004 12:43									#147
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quote: So we are going to put the responsibility for fixing smoking and drinking problems on the backs of the poor? You heartless miser and your regressive, anti-poor tax schemes.

OK - you try enforcing a scheme where people pay differential cigarette taxes based on income at the point of sale. It's the way it is because it is the most efficient way of collecting the tax despite whatever shortcomings it may have.

quote: Sin taxes disproportionately take away money from the poor, who have less to spend, i.e. they more greatly constrain the actions of the people. Thus, they're more coercive than income taxes.

But the alternative is people smoking and drinking too much and putting a strain on healthcare and law enforcement. Sin taxes are an unhappy compromise solution, but it is the best we can do right now.

	14-08-2004 12:48									#148
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If Bush were to come out in favor of a national sales tax instead of an income tax, I'd probably change my vote, and vote for Bush.

	14-08-2004 13:24									#149
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I admire your relentless ambition to render the US a third world country, Dave.

	14-08-2004 13:44									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But the alternative is people smoking and drinking too much and putting a strain on healthcare and law enforcement. Sin taxes are an unhappy compromise solution, but it is the best we can do right now.

Sin taxes predate concerns over health effects. They are based on the presumption that if you can afford these things, you can afford to pay taxes on them.

You want to solve the health problems of tobacco? Ban it.