13-08-2004 05:29									#61
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It depends on how they handle it. If you exempt items like food, clothing and housing, and perhaps have a higher rate on luxury items then perhaps it would be ok.

Also, so-called sin taxes on cigarettes and alcohol are regressive in effect, hurting the poor more than the rich, but I don't hear liberals shedding a tear over these.

	13-08-2004 05:38									#62
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sin taxes on the other hand are voluntary. you do not have to smoke or drink. the taxes on food are not voluntary because you do have to eat food.

Although i dont think that there really should be excessive taxes on alcohol.

	13-08-2004 05:40									#63
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why do we need sin taxes? if you wanna do it, why should gvt tell you whats right and wrong? why should u be punished for hurting yourself?

	13-08-2004 05:41									#64
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP It depends on how they handle it. If you exempt items like food, clothing and housing, and perhaps have a higher rate on luxury items then perhaps it would be ok.

However you handle it, you have a couple trillion a year in revenue to raise from it, so for everything you tax at a lesser rate or make exempt, you have to tax something else at a higher rate. Great way to "simplify" things.

	13-08-2004 05:42									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia why do we need sin taxes? if you wanna do it, why should gvt tell you whats right and wrong? why should u be punished for hurting yourself?

It's a voluntary donation.

	13-08-2004 05:58									#66
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quote: It's a voluntary donation.

yeah, but why tax goods at all? why even have a sales tax?

	13-08-2004 06:00									#67
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quote: yeah, but why tax goods at all? why even have a sales tax?

to pay for government: roads, police. some commies might even suggest education and healthcare.

	13-08-2004 06:05									#68
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azazel, cmon buddy, youre talking to lawrence here.

	13-08-2004 06:16									#69
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quote: Also, so-called sin taxes on cigarettes and alcohol are regressive in effect, hurting the poor more than the rich, but I don't hear liberals shedding a tear over these.

In most countries taxes from cigarettes and alcohol go towards fixing the problems that these things create.

	13-08-2004 06:41									#70
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quote: to pay for government: roads, police. some commies might even suggest education and healthcare.

you dont need sales tax to do that.

	13-08-2004 06:48									#71
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quote: you dont need sales tax to do that.

Yes, but targeted taxes mean that the people who are voluntarily imposing larger burdens on healthcare and the police are paying for it. If you lowered the tax, people would simply smoke and drink more.

	13-08-2004 06:51									#72
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Imran -

quote: Um... you neglect to count the taxes and regulations on foriegn businesses. They may have a disadvantage.

Um...you stopped reading after 1 sentence?

Here is what I said after that:

quote: Of course, we'd have to calculate the cost of doing business in those other countries to get the total effect, but the current tax structure favors foreign competition.

	13-08-2004 06:53									#73
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no, WE NEED A LOTTERY! A LOTTERY CAN FUND IT ALL!

	13-08-2004 07:03									#74
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User fees would make up the bulk of taxes

	13-08-2004 07:05									#75
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FLAT TAX !!

1st $50K exempt. Set the level at what you need above that. No exemptions. Simple...protects the poor...doesn't f*ck the rich.

	13-08-2004 07:06									#76
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user fees?

	13-08-2004 07:10									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia yeah, but why tax goods at all? why even have a sales tax?

Good point LoA. Instead of taxing "goods", like labor income, why don't we tax "bads" like carbon emissions, and use the proceeds to lower income tax rates correspondingly? According to William Nordhaus' work (Sterling Professor of Economics at Yale), a tax of $10 per ton of carbon would set the benefits of emissions equal to the costs. This would raise the price US consumers pay for gasoline about three cents per gallon, and the price US consumers pay for coal-fired electricity about five percent.

Nordhaus' Model

Carbon Tax Estimates

Why carbon tax with rebate is better than emissions trading alone

	13-08-2004 07:16									#78
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quote: user fees?

Yes, an example:

Road building and maintenance requires revenue - tax the use of roads, gasoline, or motor vehicles. We do it now thru the DMV and gas taxes - those are user fees...

	13-08-2004 07:17									#79
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where does military funding come from?

	13-08-2004 07:21									#80
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also in relation to sales tax, are art creation tools going to be taxed to high heaven?

	13-08-2004 07:39									#81
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quote: where does military funding come from?

Lottery, voluntary donations or a user fee (or a combination of all 3). We essentially pay a user fee now for the military, it's just taken out of other taxes like the income tax.

	13-08-2004 07:42									#82
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i see. so public school will cost money too... the problem im seeing is the poor people are still going to get hosed. And its going to be a case of tough nuts because of that?

	13-08-2004 08:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Good point LoA. Instead of taxing "goods", like labor income, why don't we tax "bads" like carbon emissions, and use the proceeds to lower income tax rates correspondingly? According to William Nordhaus' work (Sterling Professor of Economics at Yale), a tax of $10 per ton of carbon would set the benefits of emissions equal to the costs. This would raise the price US consumers pay for gasoline about three cents per gallon, and the price US consumers pay for coal-fired electricity about five percent.

What kind of a level do you need to replace income taxes? Also, this sort of taxes seem unfair as you place the burden on a selected group instead of having it spread through out the entire population.

This ignores the very idea of social justice as well.

	13-08-2004 08:25									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin 40% tax on sale of shares. You'd have to make 40% growth just to recoup.

Yes, but there would be no income tax anymore.

	13-08-2004 08:29									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia why do we need sin taxes? if you wanna do it, why should gvt tell you whats right and wrong? why should u be punished for hurting yourself?

You are ignoring total costs here.

Unless you are a hermit who lives outside the society, most actions you take have a social cost, and probably an environmental cost as well. In a capitalistic society, all these will eventually become a $$$ burden on the society.

Suppose you drink yourself to death, you incur a cost to the company that you are working for. They at least need to find somebody to replace you, and the work you are doing would need to be shared by other people, which increases their stress.

You see, it's not simple at all.

	13-08-2004 08:56									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Not that I'm a republican, but dont you think that doing away with a large part of the IRS would be minimizing the federal government.

And then increasing the federal government's authority with a federal sales tax.

	13-08-2004 09:12									#87
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quote: Um...you stopped reading after 1 sentence? Here is what I said after that:

No, I didn't stop reading... let me quote your sentance again with re-emphasis.

quote: Of course, we'd have to calculate the cost of doing business in those other countries to get the total effect, but the current tax structure favors foreign competition.

If you are really calculating the regulations and taxes in host countries, then the current tax structure favors domestic competition except for the most labor intensive goods. Companies from Japan or Europe pay much more in domestic taxes and regulations.

	13-08-2004 10:05									#88
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MRT -

quote: i see. so public school will cost money too... the problem im seeing is the poor people are still going to get hosed. And its going to be a case of tough nuts because of that?

Parents who want their kids educated will have to band together with other parents and pay someone to educate their children. It ain't my responsibility to educate your kid... But this has nothing to do with a national sales tax...

Imran -

quote: No, I didn't stop reading... let me quote your sentance again with re-emphasis.

That wasn't the sentence you quoted in your first response, this was the quote you used:

quote: Unless tariffs on imports match the combined cost of corporate/business taxes and regulation, foreign businesses have an advantage

You ignored my following sentence which you effectively repeated in your response.

I said we'd have to calculate the cost of doing business in foreign countries to arrive at a final tally and then you repeated that as if it never crossed my mind.

quote: If you are really calculating the regulations and taxes in host countries, then the current tax structure favors domestic competition except for the most labor intensive goods. Companies from Japan or Europe pay much more in domestic taxes and regulations.

If you look at where the bulk of our imports have been coming from in recent years, they are increasingly countries with a lower cost of doing business. Btw, I believe Japan has no capital or corporate tax...

If we have a corporate tax etc that we impose on IBM, and Indonesia or some other country doesn't, then IBM's competitor that has opened up shop in Indonesia has an advantage. We can eliminate or reduce that advantage with tariffs or quotas, but I'd rather see all business taxes in this country eliminated. If there is still an advantage due to regulatory costs that Americans won't give up, then we'd still need tariffs to offset the advantage.
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Now, it appears to me that just as the west had to go thru an industrial period to get to where we are today, the 3rd world has to follow the same path. The difference is when the west went thru it's growing pains it had no superior economies to help and the 3rd world does have that help - the west is transfering jobs and technology to the 3rd world.

This means some jobs are lost in the west but it also means the creation of gradually better jobs abroad and eventually more consumers. Tariff regimes that seek to punish people for buying foreign products (saving American jobs) serve to impoverish the 3rd world longer. Obviously that isn't the intent but that is the result...

	13-08-2004 10:23									#89
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nice links AS. thanks

	13-08-2004 10:39									#90
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Go for it. Cripple the Federal state! Make it easier for us commies.