16-08-2004 05:25									#181
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kuci, profit is an unfair tax.

	16-08-2004 05:37									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker However, a flat % tax would make it impossible for the government to collect the income it needs (at least, without causing enormous economic strain). Thus, a progressive tax is better, because it does less damage

How would unifying all the taxes we now pay into 1 flat tax cause any more of a strain then unifying them all into a sin tax?

How much money does the government need?

	16-08-2004 05:38									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: That depends on how much utility you get from the good and your income. It's a sin tax. There is NO element of coercion in buying a luxury. At least SOME can be argued for buying necessities.

There certainly is. You are forced into some action or inaction. The goal of the govt is to either make you stop consuming something or collect a tax. Is that not coercion?

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: No. The point is to make them fair. That's impossible, because it's only fair to have a flat tax. It's not fair to tax some people at a greater proportion of their income than others. However, a flat % tax would make it impossible for the government to collect the income it needs (at least, without causing enormous economic strain). Thus, a progressive tax is better, because it does less damage

Flat tax It doesn't have to be perfectly fair, but tax should be made as fair as possible. You can't tax someone into starvation just so some rich jerks can make more money for example.

	16-08-2004 05:38									#184
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A flat % of income doesn't allow the government to collect as much money, because there's only so much money you can collect from poor people (without creating intense strain on society and the economy). Progressive taxation allows the government to collect more money.

	16-08-2004 06:13									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker A flat % of income doesn't allow the government to collect as much money, because there's only so much money you can collect from poor people (without creating intense strain on society and the economy). Progressive taxation allows the government to collect more money.

if we suppose what you say is true,that brings us to my second point, how much money does the government need?

	16-08-2004 06:39									#186
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That depends on what you think it needs to do.

	16-08-2004 09:42									#187
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quote: Non sequiter,

I didn't say that I was addressing his point. See the statement before it, that was addressing his point.

quote: and it's NOT coercive, because the poor don't have to be hurt at all by the sin taxes if they don't want to.

Why do you keep trotting out this fallacy? Again, no one has to have a taxable income either if they don't want to.

	16-08-2004 09:47									#188
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A sin tax is a tax on luxuries. An income is a necessity.

	16-08-2004 09:48									#189
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People have to smoke and drink to survive?

You think it is as necessary to life to have beer as it is to have money or an income of some kind?

	16-08-2004 09:48									#190
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A taxable income is a luxury. I don't have a taxable income, and I'm not in danger of starving.

	16-08-2004 09:50									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's how you coerce people. You make certain actions more desirable for them. Specifically, some action that benefits you. You can say **** you I will do something irrational because I'm pissed that you are coercing me, but then you can do that anytime someone is coercing you.

I don't think that's exactly coercion. Coercion exists only if there's no realistic alternate choices.

If your boss is going to fire you if you don't do overtime work, that's coercion. If your boss pays you 2x for overtime work, that's not coercion.

	16-08-2004 09:50									#192
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Well damn. Everyone should be you.

	16-08-2004 09:52									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo A taxable income is a luxury. I don't have a taxable income, and I'm not in danger of starving.

Well, then, that's only because of welfare. In which case an income tax is just as uncoercive.

	16-08-2004 09:52									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Some tax is more coercive than other tax. Obviously, we have to have tax. Duh. So what's the point of complaining? Sin taxes disproportionately take away money from the poor, who have less to spend, i.e. they more greatly constrain the actions of the people. Thus, they're more coercive than income taxes (if tax rates are set such that the two levies are comparable).

That seems to imply that high prices are coercive, which doesn't make sense.

	16-08-2004 09:53									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Well, then, that's only because of welfare. In which case an income tax is just as uncoercive.

Work or welfare?

You should really try living a while before you assume you know it all.

	16-08-2004 09:55									#196
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Huh?

	16-08-2004 09:56									#197
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Yes, huh. Try to listen more and talk less. You might learn something.

	16-08-2004 09:57									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo A taxable income is a luxury. I don't have a taxable income, and I'm not in danger of starving.

That depends on the tax brackets.

	16-08-2004 10:04									#199
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quote: Well damn. Everyone should be you.

I'm not saying that it's not important. But it isn't absolutely vital to living either. Having kids is a luxury, having a car is a luxury, having a house is a luxury, eating out frequenty is a luxury, etc. I'm just saying that it's possible to live without a taxable income; you won't live all that well, but it's still living. If you want to ask whether having a taxable income or drinking any alcohol is more important, obviously it's the former. But that's irrelevant to the point that I'm making.

	16-08-2004 10:08									#200
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quote: That seems to imply that high prices are coercive, which doesn't make sense.

Every constraint (including the need of money for having a good) is by definition coercive. The question is, which constraint is greater than which.

quote: That depends on the tax brackets.

Certainly, but the discussion is about the US.

	16-08-2004 10:09									#201
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes, huh. Try to listen more and talk less. You might learn something.

Brilliant argument. I'm entirely convinced by your completely incomprehensible statement

	16-08-2004 10:10									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: That seems to imply that high prices are coercive, which doesn't make sense. Every constraint (including the need of money for having a good) is by definition coercive. The question is, which constraint is greater than which.

Clearly sin taxes are less coercive than income taxes, then.

	16-08-2004 10:11									#203
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He's saying that it's bad form to assume that us poor folk are all on welfare.

	16-08-2004 10:12									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Well damn. Everyone should be you. I'm not saying that it's not important. But it isn't absolutely vital to living either. Having kids is a luxury, having a car is a luxury, having a house is a luxury, eating out frequenty is a luxury, etc. I'm just saying that it's possible to live without a taxable income; you won't live all that well, but it's still living. If you want to ask whether having a taxable income or drinking any alcohol is more important, obviously it's the former. But that's irrelevant to the point that I'm making.

Having kids is a luxury? I suppose those families in dirt poor conditions with 10 kids must feel very pampered.

	16-08-2004 10:12									#205
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quote: Clearly sin taxes are less coercive than income taxes, then.

No. "Ultimately, the poor, who have less money to spend, are disproportionately hurt by sin taxes. Thus, they're more coercive than income taxes."

	16-08-2004 10:13									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo He's saying that it's bad form to assume that us poor folk are all on welfare.

Ah! I forgot about the lowest tax bracket. When you said you didn't have a taxable income, I thought you meant you had no income.

Regardless, his comment was idiotic.

	16-08-2004 10:13									#207
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quote: Having kids is a luxury? I suppose those families in dirt poor conditions with 10 kids must feel very pampered.

It's a luxury in that it isn't absolutely necessary to living. Having a beer once in a while doesn't make one pampered either.

	16-08-2004 10:13									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo No. "Ultimately, the poor, who have less money to spend, are disproportionately hurt by sin taxes. Thus, they're more coercive than income taxes."

Hurting the poor doesn't make something coercive (or more coercive).

	16-08-2004 10:14									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ah! I forgot about the lowest tax bracket. When you said you didn't have a taxable income, I thought you meant you had no income. Regardless, his comment was idiotic.

Sure it was, junior.

Snicker.

	16-08-2004 10:16									#210
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quote: Hurting the poor doesn't make something coercive (or more coercive).

Yes it does.