16-08-2004 10:19									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: That seems to imply that high prices are coercive, which doesn't make sense. Every constraint (including the need of money for having a good) is by definition coercive. The question is, which constraint is greater than which.

I am just going to disagree with this definition of coercion.

For starters, it's too broad. Suppose you lose a leg, so now you are physically impossible to wear two shoes. Is this constraint coercive? It seems silly to construe it that way.

Secondly, you assumed the primacy of freedom of choices, which certainly is debatable in itself.

	16-08-2004 10:21									#212
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What makes them so special?

	16-08-2004 10:24									#213
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They have less money to spend. Taking away money from them is a greater constraint on the people in general than taking away money from the rich.

quote: I am just going to disagree with this definition of coercion. For starters, it's too broad. Suppose you lose a leg, so now you are physically impossible to wear two shoes. Is this constraint coercive? It seems silly to construe it that way. Secondly, you assumed the primacy of freedom of choices, which certainly is debatable in itself.

I'm using a generalized definition of coercion. But what's yours?

	16-08-2004 10:29									#214
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quote: They have less money to spend. Taking away money from them is a greater constraint on the people in general than taking away money from the rich.

An income tax also takes money away from them, and they have less money to spend (unless, of course, it's a progressive tax). However, arranging taxes so as to minimize your coercion is kinda stupid. Either arrange them so as to be equitable (in which case a general tax on non-essential items is most equitable, as one can choose how much of them one consumes), arrange them so as to be fairest (flat % income tax), or arrange them so as to interfere the least with the economy and society. That last is close, but not quite, to what you're talking about.

	16-08-2004 10:33									#215
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quote: However, arranging taxes so as to minimize your coercion is kinda stupid.

Why?

And the way I want to arrange taxes (a progressive income tax, and that's it) is how I define the fairest and most equitable situation. Ethics are personal.

	16-08-2004 10:36									#216
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quote: Why?

Because it can be taken to ridiculous extremes. Allowing maximum "effective freedom" is what you're talking about, and it basically amounts to maximizing the number of possible choices a person can make at any given time

	16-08-2004 10:38									#217
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It amounts to maximizing the net freedom of society. Why is this "kinda stupid?"

And I don't know why you're quoting "effective freedom." I never wrote that term...

	16-08-2004 10:40									#218
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You're definition isn't a libertarian defition, but the "maximizing the number of choices" stuff, which is kinda odd, at least. I mean, I don't necessarily want more choices, but less coercion (by the definition used by libertarians).

	16-08-2004 10:52									#219
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Why does it matter if you don't want more choices? If you don't want to exercise to exercise a choice don't have to.
And I don't necessarily want to exercise countless freedoms that libertarians want, like owning a gun. Does that mean that the freedom isn't worth having?

Anyways, "maximizing the number of choices" isn't really what I want either. I consider certain freedoms (say to not starve) as more important than others (say, to have a private jet).

	16-08-2004 10:53									#220
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What does starvation have to do with a sin tax?

	16-08-2004 10:56									#221
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Having enough to eat. Sin taxes take away from that capacity. But I wan't referring to sin taxes in that sentence. That was just an example in a more general discussion, which moved on from taxes.

	16-08-2004 11:10									#222
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quote: Having enough to eat. Sin taxes take away from that capacity.

No they don't. They don't tax food.

	16-08-2004 11:12									#223
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They take away money from the poor, which can't go to food.

	16-08-2004 11:22									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't think that's exactly coercion. Coercion exists only if there's no realistic alternate choices. If your boss is going to fire you if you don't do overtime work, that's coercion. If your boss pays you 2x for overtime work, that's not coercion.

True. The latter is influence or motivate.

	16-08-2004 11:27									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo They take away money from the poor, which can't go to food.

It can go to food.

	16-08-2004 11:30									#226
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If the money goes to the state, it isn't going to the person's food purchases.

	16-08-2004 11:33									#227
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It only goes to the state if it isn't going to food in the first place.

	16-08-2004 11:39									#228
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False.

	16-08-2004 11:39									#229
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True.

	16-08-2004 11:40									#230
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Think about what you said for a minute, it's obviously completely wrong.

	16-08-2004 11:42									#231
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No, it isn't.

It only goes to the state if it's being used to buy a luxury, not food.

	16-08-2004 11:42									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Think about what you said for a minute, it's obviously completely wrong.

A minute might be a little long for him.

j/k

	16-08-2004 11:44									#233
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The tax is going to the state, which could've been used for food. Think before you post.

	16-08-2004 11:44									#234
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I you too

	16-08-2004 11:49									#235
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Any tax on the poor causes more suffering on them than an equivalent tax on the rich. Is that too much for you Sywalker?

	16-08-2004 11:50									#236
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I'm talking about being "fair" - having a tax on everyone

	16-08-2004 11:52									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'm talking about being "fair" - having a tax on everyone

Equal tax is too simple to be fair I'm afraid.

	16-08-2004 11:57									#238
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Yes, fair in the mind of some privileged kid.

	16-08-2004 12:00									#239
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quote: I'm talking about being "fair" - having a tax on everyone

That is using a substantive definition of fairness which you haven't argued for.

People who believe that everyone should be taxed "the same" need not agree that they should all pay the same amount, nor that they should pay the same percentage. In calculating the fairness a tax burden it is customary to use the principle of diminishing marginal utility. For example, ceterus paribus, taxing everyone ten dollars hurts people who only earn $100 a week more than those who earn $10000 a week.

But what does fairness have to do with taxation anyway? The political right consistently reject the idea of a fair price as opposed to a market price, and since taxes are just a way of providing public goods why should fairness have the primary role in determining tax policy? Surely a wiser tax policy would be the most efficient one (this might include not taxing very poor or very rich people, or it might not).

Complaining about fairness in taxation assumes that this is what matters most, when it is obviously the efficiency of tax policy that matters more.

	16-08-2004 12:14									#240
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Did you miss the ?

In fact, did you miss the posts where I supported a progressive tax?

I was responding to Kid.