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Elias is offline Elias
Warlord
Utah
Sep 2003
time: 22:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 07:12
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Too many Remakes Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have noticed lately that the majority of games are now just remakes or expansions of popular titles. I have not seen an original game for some time now mabey RON. not that I have anything aginst expanding on good game but when you no longer have any original Ideas to expand on theres no point. The most annoying remake is by far War craft 3 the game I hate more then any other but some how it seems to have become incredably popular.
Think as many games as you can that is not a remake, a clone, or has been expansioned to death.

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 07:17
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Just like films, eventually you are going to run out of stories.

Was it Socrates who said there are only a maximum of seven different stories to tell?

Game creation isn't all that different.

Apocalypse is offline Apocalypse
King
Lexington, VA: College - Houston, TX: Home
Aug 2005
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 07:36
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Well, it's not like the gaming industry is really solid enough to try a lot of new things.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 08:55
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But it was.

Apocalypse is offline Apocalypse
King
Lexington, VA: College - Houston, TX: Home
Aug 2005
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 09:08
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And when it was, new things came out.

Mr. President is offline Mr. President
Emperor
The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 10:15 Visit Mr. President's homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Should we not interpret this to mean that all the good games were made in the 20th century, and all the games to come will be either crap or reprints?

Apocalypse is offline Apocalypse
King
Lexington, VA: College - Houston, TX: Home
Aug 2005
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 10:32
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Nah...it's possible for some good games to come out from smaller European companies generally....that's where innovation will probably come from now if anything.

Zero is offline Zero
King
Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Elias
I have noticed lately that the majority of games are now just remakes or expansions of popular titles. I have not seen an original game for some time now mabey RON. not that I have anything aginst expanding on good game but when you no longer have any original Ideas to expand on theres no point. The most annoying remake is by far War craft 3 the game I hate more then any other but some how it seems to have become incredably popular.
Think as many games as you can that is not a remake, a clone, or has been expansioned to death.


Whoa, whoa.. Are you saying Warcraft 3 is a remake? That is rediculous. But I'll let DrSpike tackle that if he's up for it.

Remakes are GOOD. Do you know how hard it is to come up with an original game that actually PLAYS good? Besides most games don't come out near perfect in its first try. Lots of patching and lots of sequels and lots of hours/days/years and feedback from player and testers equates to great game. If you want game developer to create a completely new game everytime, there will never be time for refinement.

I think that the ENTIRE reason why fightiing game genre is so good is because it takes concept that works and refined over 20 year period. Unfortunately, it might not be the most audience grabbing move because casual gamers seem to all have A.D.Ds, but 2D fighting games have really explored the potential of the game concept well over that two decades and it wouldnt have been possible with bunch of patching/expansion/remake/sequel. I'm pretty sure that fighting community would have been long dead if Street fighter just stopped at World Warrior version... no matter how good the original was...

Same goes for Sports games like Madden. Essentially all madden game from year from year is the same game (exception of when they completely revolutionize to take full potential of new platform). But the remake improves on the forumula that works.

And except for the pretty graphics, FPS has kind of been that way too. Not much revolutionizing the genre, just bits of gameplay tweaks here and there. I havent had that much difficulty applying what I learned from my Quake1/Painkeep/TForiginal days into any new FPS...

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
Just like films, eventually you are going to run out of stories.

Was it Socrates who said there are only a maximum of seven different stories to tell?

Game creation isn't all that different.



7 different stories?

I've already got more original stories (some of them complete) in my head, ready to be put into some game... sure, some of them might already exist, but not that I know of... for most of them anyway...

And all these games can be done with what's possible today

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 15:21
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Erm... 7 stories...

Let's have a shot at this.

1. Boy meets girl - happy end.
2. Boy meets girl - sad end.
3. Quest story (external) - someone has to go somewhere and get/do something.
4. Quest story (internal) - someone has to overcome obstacles placed in their path.
5. Mistaken identies (comedy or tragedy)
6. Mystery/secrect is uncovered
7. Erm... I dunno.

-Jam

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
Deity
Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 17:09
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With sequels it all depends. Some are happy with a remake as 'more of the same' if the original was good. Others (I'd include me here) don't like paying full price for a glorified expansion.

However, not all sequels are remakes. Far from it, in fact. They make sense because the world is often already fleshed out, and there is an existing fanbase. The gameplay is in no way forced to be the same. Also, a new game gives a chance for a well liked game to evolve, sometimes for the better. The example given of Warcraft3 is a case in point. The gameplay is different to Warcraft2, and the standards in terms of race diversity and campaign immersiveness rose over the time period between the games, so a new game was fully justified both commercially and from the gamer's perspective.

So, whilst sequels can be annoying and unimaginative, it is not always thus. Your ire should not be directed at sequels per se, just bad ones.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 17:23
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But I've seen too many sequels who tries to evolve, but fails to include what make the first game(s) a success... I can mention The Settlers (3+), Battle Isle (2+) and Warcraft (3) as sequels turned too far from the original...

duke o' york is offline duke o' york

Emperor

Oct 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 17:29
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1. Man v (Wo)man
2. Man v Nature
3. Man v Environment
4. Man v Machine
5. Man v The Supernatural
6. Man v Self
7. Man v God

Although you could argue that machines, God and the supernatural are all much of a muchness, depending upon your definitions of each.

Now what has this got to do with remaking computer games?

Asmodean is offline Asmodean
King
Aarhus, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 17:36 Visit Asmodean's homepage!
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It also depends on how you define a sequel/expansion. Some would argue that RoN was just a sequel to Age of Empires, because of similar gameplay.

Truly original games are few and far between. That is sad, because as a gamer, you eventually get to feel that even the best games offer little in the way of new ideas.

Asmodean

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 18:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Asmodean
It also depends on how you define a sequel/expansion. Some would argue that RoN was just a sequel to Age of Empires, because of similar gameplay.




There's more difference between those two games, than between Serious Sam and Doom

Zero is offline Zero
King
Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Adagio
But I've seen too many sequels who tries to evolve, but fails to include what make the first game(s) a success... I can mention The Settlers (3+), Battle Isle (2+) and Warcraft (3) as sequels turned too far from the original...


For you maybe... 99% of the gamers think Warcraft evolved for the better.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 21:14
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99% of the gamers likes rpgs, I don't...

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 21:34
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You do, you just don't like magic (Harry Potter is SO going to kill you)

-Jam

Apocalypse is offline Apocalypse
King
Lexington, VA: College - Houston, TX: Home
Aug 2005
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zero
For you maybe... 99% of the gamers think Warcraft evolved for the better.

That's just crazy.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamski
You do, you just don't like magic (Harry Potter is SO going to kill you)

-Jam


Ok, I should have said I don't like the rpg-type they included in Warcraft 3 (Because of the magic)

Gamecube64 is offline Gamecube64
King
of Persia
Apr 2004
time: 23:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 22:53
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Hey it did evolve for the better! Lets look at Warcraft 2 for a moment now, both races units were entirely identical (their stats, not models), except for the spells used by the casters, each race had one pure caster (deathknight/mage) and one heavy melee caster(Ogre magi, Paladin) upgraded from the identical heavy melee units (Ogre Warrior, Knight). There was absolutely no race identity in Warcraft 2 except the spells, which only 2 units on each side had.

Enter Starcraft (now stay with me!) The races were different, very. In generalization Zerg had numbers, Terran were middle-of-the-road, and Protoss had power. Comparing Starcraft to Warcraft 2 is in favor of Starcraft, Warcraft 2 was a good game, but Starcraft was MUCH better. It also had a very good editor that allowed map makers to make custom maps that are very different from the main game.

Now, Warcraft 3. There are 4 factions, all different. Smaller amounts of units (lower pop cap, units cost more, upkeep that lowers gold income as you have more units) and longer battles (units made stronger by having higher stats) are encouraged to allow for micromanagement. All units have some kind of special upgrade or ability, like huntress's owls and moon glaives, the pulverise ability of the Tauren, the berserk ability of the troll berserker (gained by an upgrade from troll headhunter). Even the workers are different! Peasents can call to arms and "quick build" (multiple peasents building a structure at the same time for extra resources to get the job done fast) Wisps have no attack, but can dispell magic and don't cut down trees, they worship them for wood. Acolytes summon all of their buildings, and can unsummon them for 50% resource return. They don't even cut wood, ghouls do that. Peons can load into the orc building for food to give it an attack. The editor is even better than the one for Starcraft, allowing you to edit heroes, units (more than you could in starcraft), even abilities. With a special tool you can even make custom models.

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 23:23
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I didn't say Warcraft 3 didn't have anything good in it... I like (as I've mentioned in other threads about it) the fact that the races are completely different, etc, etc, etc...
But the road where it takes the wrong turn (at least seen from my point of view) is where they made the game much more magical (with heroes and such)... I know they had magic in Warcraft 2 (never played the first game), but back then it was a tolerabel level (or maybe I just didn't hate magic as much back then???), now it's all about magic... it's all about throwing the largest fireball or stomp the hardest in the ground to make an earthquake... not my type...
If they had removed the heroes, the game would have been much more enjoyable...

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
Deity
Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 23:33
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Seriously, you are the only person that has a hatred for magic in games.

Progressing and getting better powers (not all are spells) is part of what makes the game interesting.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Seriously, you are the only person that has a hatred for magic in games.

Progressing and getting better powers (not all are spells) is part of what makes the game interesting.


well im sure glad Sid Meiers Gettysburg and MS Flight sims dont have magic

I take it this is really an argument about the the use of spells in fantasy setting RTS? Like, er, Warcraft?

Adagio is offline Adagio

Emperor

Jun 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 13-08-2004 23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Seriously, you are the only person that has a hatred for magic in games.


I know

quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Progressing and getting better powers (not all are spells) is part of what makes the game interesting.


I like the progressing and such, but I just can't enjoy throwing fireballs or whatnot at the enemy... it just bores the hell out of me



Though for some reason my favorite tv-show is Charmed

Zero is offline Zero
King
Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 14-08-2004 00:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Seriously, you are the only person that has a hatred for magic in games.


i dont like medieval/magic kind of games either. Even sword fighting and ****, i prefer star wars kind of theme... and i dont even particularly like star wars. I just prefer everything to be scifi themed.

but im not the type to get really into game immersion anyway. So I DO like all the spells in WC3. All the microing necessary with spells and hero is good and I learned to appreciate just how effective a lil attention to heo and spell management can break some tactics that would otherwise be bullshit cheapass hard to break thru.

Zero is offline Zero
King
Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
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  Old Post 14-08-2004 00:59
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I like everything about WC3 except for creeping.

well i dont hate all of the creep concept. I like the creeping/killing and get rewarded in gold/exp/item concept, but I dont like the random item drop concept. It really makes and breaks the game based on something thats completely random. Some heros can turn into quite an early demi-god with right equipments, while benefit jack from backpack load of crap. Lil' randomness is ok in Multiplayer games but its something blizzard didn't have to make it random.

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
Deity
Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:34
  Old Post 14-08-2004 01:10
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It's not random. Drops are based on creature levels, with items also having 'levels'.

On release stone tokens were imbalanced, because they dropped from creatures too low. There were also doomguards on some maps......most problems were summon based.

Nowadays the item drops are balanced. Yeah you can get nice items if you creep hard creeps, but these wont be available early, and creeping hard creeps is a double-edged sword.

In short, in 1.16 it's fine.

alva is offline alva
Emperor
Republic of Flanders
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 14-08-2004 03:06
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Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
Seriously, you are the only person that has a hatred for magic in games.


Nope, you can make that two.

Traianvs is offline Traianvs
Prince
Belgium, land of plenty (corruption)
Jan 2000
time: 06:34
  Old Post 14-08-2004 04:59
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I don't like RTS games entirely based on unit strats. I want combat strategy. It's a bit like RPGs. It doesn't matter what you do, just attack (and buff, and throw some spells in) and depending on your strategy you will win or not. But you can't make unit movements that allow tactics. That's what I like about AoK. I sort of like unit formations and launching meticulously planned attacks.

I'm really hoping for Rome Total war . Boy how can you say everything has been done already! Rome will pwn! Okay Shogun and Medieval war was the same but the engine is so much bigger and better now. Things can only get better

 
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