18-08-2004 01:56									#61
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd When you are roleplaying, realism (in terms of the game's setting) is essential for the gameplay to exist.

Yes, the setting is an essential part of an RPGs gameplay. But what does it have to do with having to eat, or sleep? In the case of food, taking it out of the game improves it. Sometimes, less is more.

quote: When you are talking about GTA3... well, we'll have to wait and see how it's done, won't we?

Yes, we'll have to wait and see.

	18-08-2004 02:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think that food doesn't enhance gameplay. How do you know? Have you played the game already?

I was talking about RPGs. If it doesn't work in RPGs, I don't see how it could work in San Andreas, unless of course they take a very different approach.

	18-08-2004 02:21									#63
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I, for one, think the food element sounds like it could be fun.

I can't wait to load up on fast food and not excersise so that I can play as a morbidly obese gangster who waddles around everywhere.

	18-08-2004 02:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Yes, the setting is an essential part of an RPGs gameplay. But what does it have to do with having to eat, or sleep? In the case of food, taking it out of the game improves it. Sometimes, less is more.

Well, unless you are roleplaying an immortal, eating and sleeping are essential things for most characters. Thus, to roleplay a character correctly you would need to eat and sleep - otherwise the character would starve or go delerious.

Taking this out of the game does not improve the roleplay, it removes the roleplay. Roleplay is Realism.

	18-08-2004 03:02									#65
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Nobody (except you) wants to roleplay each and every detail of everyday life: they want to cut to chase et jump to juicy parts. BTW, when I say: "take it out", it means: "abstract it".

	18-08-2004 03:12									#66
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Hmm...i wonder..

If food, or the lack of food affects your characters performance, then what about drugs? Like in Fallout...maybe something for the modders to try out...

	18-08-2004 04:42									#67
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quote: I can't wait to load up on fast food and not excersise so that I can play as a morbidly obese gangster who waddles around everywhere.

Oh yeah... the big ass Kingpin

	18-08-2004 17:11									#68
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Nobody (except you) wants to roleplay each and every detail of everyday life

Nobody except me and other roleplayers want to roleplay, yes. But I'm not the only roleplayer.


Didn't I just mention how all the best roleplay modules for NWN require food and sleep? It's included in the 'hardcore' ruleset hakpak, used to make NWN a close to core D&D rules as possible. Very popular.

EDIT: And hell, check out the Arabel NWN server. you'll see people roleplaying more than every detail. They cough, they sneeze, they trip, ect...


And if you abstract it to the point where you don't even have to buy food... then you are removing it. And that is removing a humongous part of in-character detail. How can you roleplay a warrior who can flight non stop without ever having to rest or eat anything at all? Not to mention all the ways that needing food and rest add to the game. So you're starting your career of adventuring, and you've got no money? Well, how are you going to feed yourself? Better look for a job quick, if you don't want to starve to death. Sneaking into a dungeon packed full of enemies? Better hope you can get through in a single day, or you'll have to either suffer from fatigue or find a secluded place to sleep and risk being caught off guard.

	18-08-2004 18:08									#69
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I wonder what kind of PC will be required to run it though.

	18-08-2004 18:23									#70
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Well, unless you are roleplaying an immortal, eating and sleeping are essential things for most characters. Thus, to roleplay a character correctly you would need to eat and sleep - otherwise the character would starve or go delerious. Taking this out of the game does not improve the roleplay, it removes the roleplay. Roleplay is Realism.

Pardon, but later you mention NWN as an example. If you can have a fantasy world with magic spells, charms, etc is not possible to have a fantasy world in which characters dont need to eat or sleep?

I cant speak for the realism of GTA, since not having played it im not supposed to speak of it at all (and have stuck to that since Imran made his request so strongly)

	18-08-2004 18:24									#71
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Requirements can't be too high...it's supposed to run on a PS2 as well
I'm guessing it will be about the same as the previous 2 version, and that they simply improved their engine's performance a lot to allow for these new features...
meh, but what do i know, i haven't been following this game at all...except a few poly threads.

	18-08-2004 19:13									#72
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Pardon, but later you mention NWN as an example. If you can have a fantasy world with magic spells, charms, etc is not possible to have a fantasy world in which characters dont need to eat or sleep?

I said realistic in terms of the game setting. D&D has food and water - there are inns and restaurants in the world, and there are gluttons and starving beggars in the world. There are spells and magical items which can reduce fatigue or create food, of course, but that is dealing with it in terms that make sense within the setting.

	18-08-2004 19:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I said realistic in terms of the game setting. D&D has food and water - there are inns and restaurants in the world, and there are gluttons and starving beggars in the world. .

oh, and hunters, farmers and fishermen as well. A foodless world shouldnt have any farms (well other than cotton, or raw materials for spirits, or whatever)

	18-08-2004 21:06									#74
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Nobody except me and other roleplayers want to roleplay, yes. But I'm not the only roleplayer. Didn't I just mention how all the best roleplay modules for NWN require food and sleep? It's included in the 'hardcore' ruleset hakpak, used to make NWN a close to core D&D rules as possible. Very popular. EDIT: And hell, check out the Arabel NWN server. you'll see people roleplaying more than every detail. They cough, they sneeze, they trip, ect... And if you abstract it to the point where you don't even have to buy food... then you are removing it. And that is removing a humongous part of in-character detail. How can you roleplay a warrior who can flight non stop without ever having to rest or eat anything at all? Not to mention all the ways that needing food and rest add to the game. So you're starting your career of adventuring, and you've got no money? Well, how are you going to feed yourself? Better look for a job quick, if you don't want to starve to death. Sneaking into a dungeon packed full of enemies? Better hope you can get through in a single day, or you'll have to either suffer from fatigue or find a secluded place to sleep and risk being caught off guard.

Do they roleplay bowel movement? Personal hygiene? Grooming? Choosing what you'll be wearing for your adventure? Lets agree to disagree.

	19-08-2004 03:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Do they roleplay bowel movement?

Probably not in graphic detail of course, but I think that is something that you could safely abstract into "resting" unless you are roleplaying a character with a weak bladder or something. ( That could be fun. I'll have to take note.)

quote: Personal hygiene? Grooming? Choosing what you'll be wearing for your adventure?

Absolutely. Do you have any idea what roleplaying is?

	19-08-2004 06:42									#76
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Absolutely. Do you have any idea what roleplaying is?

Yes, I know what roleplaying is. Man, your games must be bogged down by all that pointless minutiae. You seem to think that you either do all the things you're talking about (eating, washing yourself, brushing your teeth, taking a dump...) or you're not roleplaying. You seem to think that the essence of roleplaying consists in roleplaying these mundane activities: if you're not doing these things you're not roleplaying, you're merely rollplaying. What is roleplaying? Basically, it's assuming the role of a character in a fictional world. That's more or less the essence of roleplaying. I don't see why you can't assume the role of a character in a fictional world without having to roleplay such things as sleep, eating or brushing my teeth. It's still roleplaying to me. It's like saying that an actor isn't acting, since he doesn't eat or sleep in the play he's in.

	19-08-2004 06:56									#77
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Yes, I know what roleplaying is. Man, your games must be bogged down by all that pointless minutiae. You seem to think that you either do all the things you're talking about (eating, washing yourself, brushing your teeth, taking a dump...) or you're not roleplaying. You seem to think that the essence of roleplaying consists in roleplaying these mundane activities: if you're not doing these things you're not roleplaying, you're merely rollplaying. What is roleplaying? Basically, it's assuming the role of a character in a fictional world. That's more or less the essence of roleplaying. I don't see why you can't assume the role of a character in a fictional world without having to roleplay such things as sleep, eating or brushing my teeth. It's still roleplaying to me. It's like saying that an actor isn't acting, since he doesn't eat or sleep in the play he's in.

That comment was directed mostly at what I quoted. I could understand how sleeping and eating might be left aside from roleplaying (but that's bad roleplaying) but hygeniene grooming and fashion? Absolutely neccisary to depict any character with personality. How can you even describe what your character looks like without taking such things into consideration? "He might be clean shaven.... or he might not be. He just wears whatever"

	19-08-2004 10:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd That comment was directed mostly at what I quoted. I could understand how sleeping and eating might be left aside from roleplaying (but that's bad roleplaying) but hygeniene grooming and fashion? Absolutely neccisary to depict any character with personality. How can you even describe what your character looks like without taking such things into consideration? "He might be clean shaven.... or he might not be. He just wears whatever"

Of course, your character's appearance is important. But you can say that your character is, for example, a clean-shaven, fashion-conscious metrosexual and leave it at that. You don't actually have to roleplay it each and every day in minute detail: you don't actually have to roleplay taking a shower each and every day, you don't actually have to roleplay plucking your eyebrows every week or so, you don't actually have to roleplay shaving your genitals every month. Unless of course it furthers the story. Of course, you can roleplay all this if you want to.

That takes me to my main point, or one of my mean points. You seem to think that there's ONE right way to play RPGs. I don't agree with you on this. I'm more liberal. Some people who play D&D barely roleplay: they rollplay. And that's cool. Others do light roleplay: they create a character, but without going overboard. Most people who play RPGs are in these two categories. Then you have the "method roleplayers", gamers for whom roleplaying is almost everything. So our discussion amounts to this: I'm a light roleplayer and you're a method roleplayer. There's no point in discussing this any further. So lets agree to disagree. Unless you want your +1s, that is

	19-08-2004 15:59									#79
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Of course, your character's appearance is important. But you can say that your character is, for example, a clean-shaven, fashion-conscious metrosexual and leave it at that. You don't actually have to roleplay it each and every day in minute detail: you don't actually have to roleplay taking a shower each and every day, you don't actually have to roleplay plucking your eyebrows every week or so, you don't actually have to roleplay shaving your genitals every month.

You do if you want to depict your character as fashion concious. Of course, applying this to the food example, you should still need to buy food. It needs to be there - you just don't have to roleplay every bite you make into the sandwich.

quote: That takes me to my main point, or one of my mean points. You seem to think that there's ONE right way to play RPGs. I don't agree with you on this. I'm more liberal. Some people who play D&D barely roleplay: they rollplay.

My point exactly, there are rollplayers and there are roleplayers. Rollplayers, if they don't understand what roleplaying is, shouldn't be talking about what is needed to roleplay.

	19-08-2004 22:09									#80
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That's not my point. There are rollplayers and there are what I call method roleplayers and there are people in between, what I call light roleplayers. There's no right way of playing. Light roleplaying is still roleplaying. Like I said earlier:
so our discussion amounts to this: I'm a light roleplayer and you're a method roleplayer. There's no point in discussing this any further. So lets agree to disagree.

	19-08-2004 22:34									#81
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Roleplay only means one thing and details like food, hygeiene, and clothing tastes are vital to depicting any character that has an ounce of depth to their personality.

	20-08-2004 01:39									#82
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I would rather my characters depth came from descriptions of their heroic deeds, rather than describing everyday banalities.

As for food in GTA, freedom to do what you want has always been the series strong point. Hopefully the penelty for not eating will not be too unfun.

	20-08-2004 01:54									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty I would rather my characters depth came from descriptions of their heroic deeds, rather than describing everyday banalities.

So you only roleplay epic characters - you skip past all those boring levels and start at level 20?

It's personality that defines a character, not ability or deeds. What depth is there to an emotionless automaton that has slain thousands of monsters? Or, for that matter, how do the "heroic deeds" of a farmboy who's never even seen a goblin (ie. a fresh level 1 character) give depth and personality to the character?

	20-08-2004 02:55									#84
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cmon luddy - think of novels.

There are some novels that go into every detail of what their protagonists eat "oh, for the smell of a madeleine" or whatever. And there are some where youre never gonna get a single word about what they eat, if they ate, etc. You just assume they did and that theres nothing about how they did so that matters. Now if youre reading robinson crusoe, lets say, that would be a terrible thing to abstract. And in a differnt way, Rembrance of things past. But if youre reading say, the scarlett letter, or crime and punishment, you can skip it (not sure if the respective authors did so)

Same in a game. You can abstract it and assume that the character always gets food where its convenient, and somehow gets money to do so, or forages. Unless the story and world and gameplay make this unrealistic.

	20-08-2004 03:16									#85
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark cmon luddy - think of novels. There are some novels that go into every detail of what their protagonists eat "oh, for the smell of a madeleine" or whatever. And there are some where youre never gonna get a single word about what they eat, if they ate, etc. You just assume they did and that theres nothing about how they did so that matters. Now if youre reading robinson crusoe, lets say, that would be a terrible thing to abstract. And in a differnt way, Rembrance of things past. But if youre reading say, the scarlett letter, or crime and punishment, you can skip it (not sure if the respective authors did so) Same in a game. You can abstract it and assume that the character always gets food where its convenient, and somehow gets money to do so, or forages. Unless the story and world and gameplay make this unrealistic.

First, there's quite a difference between reading a book and roleplaying a character. One usually relies on naration, while the other relies on acting in a very personal/intimate way.

But I don't mind a bit of abstractation. It's just removing the neccesity of food completely or saying "oh, I probably just happened to find a roast turkey leg down here in the depths of the undead catacombs. No worry." which is bad roleplaying. (just as a book that has people traveling over a wasteland without adressing how they eat is poor writing) And not having any taste in clothes, or hygiene and grooming habits is also bad roleplaying. How can you get into character if you don't even know how your character would dress?

Subtracting rations automatically on a basis of how long you've traveled, or including the price of food to a room at the inn, or taking it for granted that someone forages for food while resting in the wilderness is fine (provided there is a character in the party that would have the neccisary knowledge and skills to do that, of course). I don't expect people to document every crumb in their backpack and describe in full detail how they eat it.

	20-08-2004 03:39									#86
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark cmon luddy - think of novels. There are some novels that go into every detail of what their protagonists eat "oh, for the smell of a madeleine" or whatever. And there are some where youre never gonna get a single word about what they eat, if they ate, etc. You just assume they did and that theres nothing about how they did so that matters. Now if youre reading robinson crusoe, lets say, that would be a terrible thing to abstract. And in a differnt way, Rembrance of things past. But if youre reading say, the scarlett letter, or crime and punishment, you can skip it (not sure if the respective authors did so) Same in a game. You can abstract it and assume that the character always gets food where its convenient, and somehow gets money to do so, or forages. Unless the story and world and gameplay make this unrealistic.

If somebody would put his games in story-form they would look more like Seinfeld (without the humor) than Lord of the Rings.

	20-08-2004 04:06									#87
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo If somebody would put his games in story-form they would look more like Seinfeld (without the humor) than Lord of the Rings.

Food was an issue in Lord of the Rings. It was even used in a key character development point with sam giving up his rations for Frodo so that he could continue on and be strong enough to resist the ring. It was also the center point of many other character interactions, particuarily between Sam and Smeagol. Food was also one of the gifts from the elves - obviously Tolkien reconized the importance of eating.

	20-08-2004 04:50									#88
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Food was an issue in Lord of the Rings. It was even used in a key character development point with sam giving up his rations for Frodo so that he could continue on and be strong enough to resist the ring. It was also the center point of many other character interactions, particuarily between Sam and Smeagol. Food was also one of the gifts from the elves - obviously Tolkien reconized the importance of eating.

Well, duh! But he didn't describe in minute detail each and every meal his characters had. If he had done this, LOTR would have been 30 000 pages long, and mind-numbingly boring!

	20-08-2004 04:53									#89
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Maybe you should read my reply to LoTM's post.

	20-08-2004 05:15									#90
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Maybe you should read my reply to LoTM's post.

Yes, I would tend to agree with what you wrote THERE. Now you're being reasonable!