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mmontgomery
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I was intrigued by certain strategy guides that suggested making a beeline to get Free Market at the beginning of the game, and switching immediately, then beeline to get Wealth/Crawlers. I thought they must not be thinking of a transcendence game, until they said specifically that the second population unit would have to become a doctor, and not to build more than six (map size dependent) bases at first to avoid bureaucracy drones. Their point was that the energy gain would more than make up for the loss of worker. Also, the drone penalty for moving past the faction boundaries made exploration impossible.
Now my usually strategy was to beeline to police state with most factions, switching to free market only when I have I have finished by initial exploratory phase, and have some secret projects to help with done control. With Police State, the +2 support helps for scouts (to pop pods), police, and terraformers, and the +2 police helps me to expand beyond 6 bases by making sure that I have two police in each city. (The same thing could be done with recreation commons, but it is twice as expensive to build, and costs support each turn. Plus, I like to keep a or two defender in the city anyway to protect against worms.) I also like to send out explorers in every direction to try to pop the pods and get the goddies before my competitors can, and support/police helps with this.
Anyway, I decided to run a test for 40 turns with each. So I started a game with Morgan, and beginning with the exact same starting position, I tried both paths. I pick Morgan since I figured he would be strongest with the Free Market/Wealth beeline, and wanted to make sure I was giving Free Market a fair shake. I also build very few defenders at first with free market, to minimize the support problems, again to try to give Free Market a fair chance. This lack of defenders made me very nervous, but I did not want to handicap Free Market with the support for more defenders at first.
My biggest problem with the Free Market path turned out to be mind worms. Normally, the early mind worms are no problem, because they are just hatchlings. I experienced several occasions during the first 40 turns with Free Market/Wealth, where mind worms attacked. With the first base, I had a defender already in it, so I first tried attacking with my defender as I usually do, but instead of having the typical 3-2 odds (which nearly always win), my attack strength was only 1.57 against a defense strength of 1.75, and I lost. I tried 5 replays of this battle before the mind worm lost, so I don't think losing was a fluke. I also tried a strategy when I sat tight. Oddly enough, I usually won on defense, partially because of the 25% base bonus, but mainly because the mind worm attack strength was inexplicably only 1.12. [I wonder is this is a bug, since the mind worm showed a PSI of 3, and a -25% hatchling penalty. On open ground, these mind worms attack at a power of 2.25.] Anyway, when I replayed and sat tight (instead of attacking), I won. On the second attack, I had not yet built a defender. (Against, I was trying to minimize support costs.) Luckily, the base was size 2, so instead of losing the whole base, I lost 1 (worthless) population, and a valuable recycling tank. I went back to an earlier save, and this time built a defender right after my recycling tank.
On open ground, encountering a mind worm was always a losing situation. If I attacked, I lost. If I tried to run away, the mind worm caught up and killed the unit easily. In one case, I was escorting a colony pod. I decided in this case to save and reload until I won the attack, which took about 5 tries. In short, if I had not reloaded at all, Free Market would not have fared nearly as well as shown, since I would have lost 2 recyling tanks, 1 colony pod, and 3 scouts to mind worms. As it was, I reloaded to avoid any loses, and even gained some energy gains from the kills, which realistically, I had very little chance of winning those battles. I found the need to reload rather frustrating, since I normally play iron man, but I was making saves nearly every turn to document this experiment, and I wanted to do everything possible not to bias against Free Market.
There were even more attacks with my Police State experiment, probably because I had more bases and was occupying more ground. But these attacks were not a problem. For some reason, the mind worms never seem to ambush a base; they always stop next to it. So my defenders had little problem killing the mind worms at 3-2 odds. Similarly, mind worms would typically appear as I tried to move into fungus, putting my unit on the attack for easy kills. My only loss to mind worms was popping one pod infested with 3 mind worms, which subsequently killed by explorer. I never felt the need to save/reload with Police State.
My other problem was that University was nearby. With my Free Market experiment, when I encountered University, I only had a total of two scouts. I gave up two techs to get a blood truce with University. They would not offer a treaty, nor would they trade or sell any tech. With Police, they demanded 50 energy credits. (I thought this was odd; that University always preferred tech, but maybe I did not have anything they wanted.) I refused, and they declared a Vendetta. I was not too worried. I killed the 2-1-2 rover that found my scout; by this time, my scout had gained 3 levels of morale due to worms and monolith, so this was not a surprising outcome. (It first retreated with 50% damage to my 10%, then I pinned it in with my ZOC and finished it off.) I wiped out two University probes heading my way, and one colony pod. By turn 33, I had a dozen scouts built, many of which had decent morale, and University offered to end the Vendetta, and even gave a treaty of friendship. They still would not trade or sell any tech, nor would they accept a pact. Anyway, I was much happier with my Police results, since I cost University 110 minerals worth of units, did not lose a thing, and did not give up any tech.
So without further rambling, here are the results at turn 40 for each:
Free Market
172 energy
6 bases each with recycling tanks
3 formers
3 crawlers
no explorers
no alien artifacts
Bases:
1/4//8
1/3/8
2/3/8
1/3/8
0/3/8
1/3/9
TOTAL: 6/19/49
Total support: -2
Police
51 energy
8 bases each with recycling tanks
4 formers
1 colony pod
4 explorers
3 alien artifacts
Bases:
3/4/5
2/4/3
0/6/3
5/2/3
2/4/3
2/4/3
2/4/4
3/4/5
TOTAL: 19/32/29
Total Support: -2
I am currently moving a colony pod to outflank University and cut off their avenue of expansion. (With Free Market, I have 2 fewer bases [soon to be 3], and cannot cut off the University expansion to the north.)
To contrast the two TOTALS, Free Market currently has 20 more energy per turn total, and Police currently has 13 more minerals per turn. Since a lot of the energy is turned into production at 2 energy for 1 mineral, I consider the two positions comparable. Free Market is gain technology somewhat faster (10 more research per turn), and I was planning to move to Police state to help with support. I feel that I need more formers to build forests, but I don't want to get overburdened by support; otherwise, the crawlers currently only bring in one mineral each.
Although both positions will be helped by terraforming, the Free Market bases max out with working 1 forest each and zero growth, until they spring for a recreation commons. The Police bases can work 2 forests each and continue to grow, needing a 3rd police (or rec commons) at size 3 to work 3 forests. And I will be expanding from 8 to 12 bases in the next 12 turns or so.
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Looking to the future, I personally am much happier with the Police position. I plan to continue expanding bases, terraforming, and popping pods, at least for the next little while. I currently have my best base working on the Human Genome SP. I might even cash 1 or 2 AA to hurry this along. Once this is done, I should be able to switch to FM, building a few rec commons as needed. I also have to decide if I want to keep my treaty with University, or if I want to bleed them dry with drones.
With the Free Market position, have been unused to moving to Free Market so early, I am not sure where to go from here. For example, when do I continue expanding? Do I go for the Human Genome SP first? Do I keep my bases stagnant at size two and just rely on supply crawlers, or do I build rec centers so that I can work more land? Once I get Police State, I intend to build a lot more formers, but should I build more before then, since I will pay 1 mineral support for every one I build? Of course, my crawlers would be a lot more effective if I had more forest to work.
Anyway, comments and suggestions welcome, both for the first 40 turns, and how you think the next 40 turns should be played for a fair comparision between the two approaches.
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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To run FM, you need to learn how to avoid provoking worms, and how to tackle them when you do.
Before 2150, native worms that attack bases do so at a severe penalty. Before 2115, native worms anywhere suffer large penalties. So, after 2115, stop popping pods recklessly and stop tromping through fungus.
Noncombat units defend as well as combat units when in bases, against native worms. If an undefended base finds itself next to a mind worm, if it has a former nearby, you can move the former into the base as defense, and likely win.
FM will suffer when confronted with early aggression. In that case, run planned instead. Compare planned and police, two SEs with the same penalty. Which would you rather have, +2 support and +2 police, which require quite a few of your minerals to take advantage of, or +1 industry and +2 growth, which makes your minerals stretch further, and gives you more workers?
Rec commons are actually a really good deal. Spend 4 mineral rows, and 1 EC/turn, to quell 2 drones. Try doing the same with police (if you can use that many police), and it costs you 2 minerals/turn. If you're still below your support limit, you lose potential formers or offensive military, so they still cost you effectively 2 minerals/turn.
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-SafaN-
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quote:
Originally posted by mmontgomery
Anyway, I decided to run a test for 40 turns with each. So I started a game with Morgan, and beginning with the exact same starting position, I tried both paths. I pick Morgan since I figured he would be strongest with the Free Market/Wealth beeline, and wanted to make sure I was giving Free Market a fair shake. I also build very few defenders at first with free market, to minimize the support problems, again to try to give Free Market a fair chance. This lack of defenders made me very nervous, but I did not want to handicap Free Market with the support for more defenders at first.
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defence problems are solved with synthmethal probes (0-2-1) no support and works against single attacking units
mostly starting with 3 scouts (1 free and 2 directly after base founding) 2 of them then cashing after light exploration
quote:
My biggest problem with the Free Market path turned out to be mind worms. Normally, the early mind worms are no problem, because they are just hatchlings. I experienced several occasions during the first 40 turns with Free Market/Wealth, where mind worms attacked. With the first base, I had a defender already in it, so I first tried attacking with my defender as I usually do, but instead of having the typical 3-2 odds (which nearly always win), my attack strength was only 1.57 against a defense strength of 1.75, and I lost. I tried 5 replays of this battle before the mind worm lost, so I don't think losing was a fluke. I also tried a strategy when I sat tight. Oddly enough, I usually won on defense, partially because of the 25% base bonus, but mainly because the mind worm attack strength was inexplicably only 1.12. [I wonder is this is a bug, since the mind worm showed a PSI of 3, and a -25% hatchling penalty. On open ground, these mind worms attack at a power of 2.25.] Anyway, when I replayed and sat tight (instead of attacking), I won. On the second attack, I had not yet built a defender. (Against, I was trying to minimize support costs.) Luckily, the base was size 2, so instead of losing the whole base, I lost 1 (worthless) population, and a valuable recycling tank. I went back to an earlier save, and this time built a defender right after my recycling tank.
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Thats right: don't think about attacking mindworms as morgan without empath.
avoid popping unsafe pods, avoid entering fungus with any unit beside a former to clean it up. Then u should have less mindworms and better play.
defender (probe style) are only needed in outer citys, be sure to have a probe defence in all sea citys
if u can trade for SothB, it will be a huge help for trance
quote:
On open ground, encountering a mind worm was always a losing situation. If I attacked, I lost. If I tried to run away, the mind worm caught up and killed the unit easily. In one case, I was escorting a colony pod. I decided in this case to save and reload until I won the attack, which took about 5 tries. In short, if I had not reloaded at all, Free Market would not have fared nearly as well as shown, since I would have lost 2 recyling tanks, 1 colony pod, and 3 scouts to mind worms. As it was, I reloaded to avoid any loses, and even gained some energy gains from the kills, which realistically, I had very little chance of winning those battles. I found the need to reload rather frustrating, since I normally play iron man, but I was making saves nearly every turn to document this experiment, and I wanted to do everything possible not to bias against Free Market.
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thats right, thats the essence of free market: it is isolationistic with little exploring and little defence in trade for cash and tech. Turn advantage u know
quote:
My other problem was that University was nearby. With my Free Market experiment, when I encountered University, I only had a total of two scouts. I gave up two techs to get a blood truce with University. They would not offer a treaty, nor would they trade or sell any tech. With Police, they demanded 50 energy credits. (I thought this was odd; that University always preferred tech, but maybe I did not have anything they wanted.) I refused, and they declared a Vendetta. I was not too worried. I killed the 2-1-2 rover that found my scout; by this time, my scout had gained 3 levels of morale due to worms and monolith, so this was not a surprising outcome. (It first retreated with 50% damage to my 10%, then I pinned it in with my ZOC and finished it off.) I wiped out two University probes heading my way, and one colony pod. By turn 33, I had a dozen scouts built, many of which had decent morale, and University offered to end the Vendetta, and even gave a treaty of friendship. They still would not trade or sell any tech, nor would they accept a pact. Anyway, I was much happier with my Police results, since I cost University 110 minerals worth of units, did not lose a thing, and did not give up any tech.
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With one of the probe defences u can buy the rover, then use it to destroy all they throw to you.
After a while they will beg for peace
After IA u have two choices: live in peace or live alone: send some probes for their techs, try to get 4-1-2's and pound on them until they are submissive: with 2 good techers its easy game now. U can try to ignore them but it will be war sometimes, just be prepared.
quote:
I am currently moving a colony pod to outflank University and cut off their avenue of expansion. (With Free Market, I have 2 fewer bases [soon to be 3], and cannot cut off the University expansion to the north.)
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there is no reason why u should have lesser cps: growth is as quick and u have cash to complete pod when growth has occured
quote:
With the Free Market position, have been unused to moving to Free Market so early, I am not sure where to go from here. For example, when do I continue expanding? Do I go for the Human Genome SP first? Do I keep my bases stagnant at size two and just rely on supply crawlers, or do I build rec centers so that I can work more land? Once I get Police State, I intend to build a lot more formers, but should I build more before then, since I will pay 1 mineral support for every one I build? Of course, my crawlers would be a lot more effective if I had more forest to work.
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free market is beelining to IA, then building HGP And PTS
= size 3 bases, with a talent and a drone expelled by PTS. U don't need rec commons yet. Before these projects u need 1 former/city after u can build 2.
build prototypes with crawlers, build projects with crawlers: use cash to upgrade them.
Try stagnating the bases at 3.
children chreches are crucial for morgan, wil help with the moral problems.
Greetz, SafaN
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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hmmmm--
what can I say . .. its a decent analysis but there doesn't seem to be any consideration of
1. the early use of crawlers-- These are obviously available since youmentioned FM/wealth
2. actually switching SE chouices back and forth-- I believe in FM but may spend a bit of time in other choices depending on the circumstances
3. The time value of tech-- The FM players gets tech earlier than the PS player and this has value
To me PS is like an addictive drug-- once you are relying on it for drone contol, its hard to get off. For me FM with Morgan means you probably rush a crawler to crawl minerals and "solve" the support problem. Other than that you work hard to get the HGP and PTS and "grow" horizontally. Why you would have fewer bases using FM baffles me since rushing CPs as soon as the base is ready to grow is the idea.
Bureacracy limits-- who cares?-- so the first citizen is a drone . .. So what?-- make him a doctor .. . the base won't starve working only the base tile and you get the benefit of another 7 or 8 energy. The bottom line to a possible drone problem is build another base.
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Ka Plewy
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I'm not suprised you did poorly, because you executed half the strategy, maybe 1/3. The key is getting to IA to so you can get to crawlers, AND run Wealth. I see no mention of Wealth or Crawlers. Up until you get to crawlers, you should be pumping out CP's until you've filled your continent. Also, at some point before IA you should be making formers and and spamming forests like their is no tomorrow. I've almost never been able to get to IA without picking a tech off the beeline, and my tech of choice is Centauri Ecology, unless I have had to pick it first. Forests do two great things, they expand on their own, and they can remove fungus from non rocky squares in the process. This helps you as it makes it more difficult for mind worms to get close to your cities.
If you implement a complete strategy coordinating forestation, expansion, and use of crawlers, there is little reason for you to fail. With these combinations, your cities will begin to produce regardless of the number of workers you have, simply because of all the crawlers sending in minerals.
Good luck!
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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well stated ka plewy !
The tester tried to test and compare a FM strategy without doing what a Free Marketeer might be doing
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
To be fair, he said he was running FM/Wealth, which was also demonstrated by his attackers having strength 1.57 against worms. |
True
But a key to the morgan FM/wealth strat is to build bases-- there should be no reason to have less bases than under his PS style-- in fact extra energy should allow rushing faster. At the very least, getting to crawlers faster and using them faster should negate some of the support issues
I also don't think the tester realized how weak the early worms are when they attack you and that the FM player is no worse defending against native attack than anyone else--
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Ka Plewy
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My mistake. mmontgomery emphasized Free Market so much I missed the Wealth. Thanks Flubber for backing me up.
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mmontgomery
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quote:
Originally posted by Ka Plewy
I'm not suprised you did poorly, because you executed half the strategy, maybe 1/3. The key is getting to IA to so you can get to crawlers, AND run Wealth. I see no mention of Wealth or Crawlers. Up until you get to crawlers, you should be pumping out CP's until you've filled your continent. Also, at some point before IA you should be making formers and and spamming forests like their is no tomorrow. |
I actually don't think I did poorly with FM. I just don't see it clobbering PS. To be clear, I Beelined IA, researching only Biogenetics (for recycling tanks), and CE, for formers, and completed IA on turn 33. I started pumping out crawlers as soon as I could build them, so I can't say that I neglected the crawler part of the strategy. But I am not sure that was the best idea, because I probably needed more formers first (I only had 3 formers at this point), and the crawlers actually had nothing better than 1 mineral to work (the cities were working the forests built up to that point). But in fact making more cities might have been a better choice than either more formers or crawlers.
As for the mind worms, with my FM experiment, I only caused one mind worm "tromping" through fungus. I got lucky and did not get any mind worms from pods. The other mind worms just showed up.
quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Before 2150, native worms that attack bases do so at a severe penalty. Before 2115, native worms anywhere suffer large penalties. |
This is great information! I was wondering why the mind worm attack rating against the base was cut in half. So I don't have to worry so much about mind worm attacks against bases in the first 50 turns. But what do you do about mind worm attacks against bases after turn 50? It is clear that the mind worms should normally win after this penalty is removed, even with the defender getting a 25% base bonus.
There was the suggestion to switch to planned in an aggressive situation (i.e. my University problem). I am not sure than planned stacks up well against PS. With PS, if I use the full support capability (which I usually do), then each base effectively gains +2 minerals. Planned only results in effectively 10% more minerals. If I am generating 5 minerals per turn, this is effectively only 0.5 extra minerals per turn from planned, verses 2 minerals from PS. And the growth bonus from planned does me no good at this stage of the game, and could even hurt, by expanding my bases more quickly than the drones can be controlled.
But still, the key question for these 40 turns is priority of building. Now it is fine to say pump out CPs, and formers, and crawlers, and synthmetal probes, but there are only so many resources, so one has to prioritize. There were many good suggestions here, such as building synthmetal probes as clean defenders, but these cost 30 minerals. Still, this is definitely a better long term than building the scouts as defenders, which effectively cost me 1 mineral per turn, and are worse defenders. I guess I could produce more colony pods, realizing that each new base will trigger a random drone. So I will have to starve the affected base back to size one, or research social psych to build a recreation commons. BTW, I agree that recreation commons is a better long term buy than two police, but it requires more resources up front. I can build a new colony pod AND two police for the same cost as a recreation commons.
So let's think about where the priorities should have been different. I probably built 3 scouts more than I should have (recapture 30 minerals). Those should have been replaced by synthmethal probes, or perhaps I should have left some bases undefended. This is a tough call, since every single base was next to at least one square of fungus. Say leave the bases undefended, and build another former with those resources. Still, this does not substantially change the picture.
Should I have built more bases instead of the formers and crawlers? If so, for each new base I place, one of my current bases stops working a forest and starts starving. I had not built a single probe and had not infiltrated yet. Should I have built an aggressive probe team instead of a former or crawler?
I would be happy to zip up the saves and send to anyone who cares to look to see if there are specific things I should have done differently to give FM a better chance. But I think I played it pretty close to optimal.
Fundamentally, the reason I think PS does better in the early game has to do with having the ability to expand more freely. Assuming two scouts in each base acting as police, each city can stabilize at size 2, work 3 squares, and support 1 extra unit [2 for non-Morgan] (beyond their own police). In the early game, consider that a new colony with one police costs the same as a crawler. The crawler generates two minerals. The new city generates 3 minerals (before recycling tanks). The new city provides one more support, for an extra former. The new city can build one more police, and generate another 2 minerals. The new city expands my territory, possibly blocking expansion by rival factions. Now FM can also expand cities, but the lack of police means that whichever city gets the random drone must stop working one square that it was working. The new city may not be able to work any squares but the base square. For this penalty, the new city gets +5 energy in the base square. But PS gets +2 energy from the two extra squares worked, so the net gain for FM is only +3. And once PS gets Wealth (which I think will happen around turn 60), the energy situation equalizes.
Anyway, these experiments and the subsequent analysis indicate to me that an early beeline to IA is inferior to a beeline to D:L, then IA. I would be glad to send all of the saves to anyone who wants them. Perhaps someone would care to take the starting position, and replay themselves to a better result. But please, no save/restore to get better pod results. The only save/restore I did in this was to try to figure out the best way to deal with mind worms for FM.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by mmontgomery
There was the suggestion to switch to planned in an aggressive situation (i.e. my University problem). . |
IIRC Morgan can't go planned so the suggestion is moot.
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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Colony pods cost 3 rows
Police cost 1 row, and take up support
Crawlers cost 3 rows
Regarding Police vs Planned, most of the time you don't even get to pick which one, since Planned is on the IA beeline, and Police is not. But combine Planned with Wealth and it's even more powerful:
Going from 0 to +1 industry, you get 10/9 value ~= +11%
Going from +1 to +2 industry, you get 9/8 value = +12.5% minerals. In a base producing just 5 (which is pretty low), you effectively gain .625 minerals by going Planned. You can also rushbuy units more cheaply. This effect is exacerbated by +industry factions like the Hive or the Drones.
+3 to +4 industry: 7/6 ~= +16.7%
After 2150, when dealing with mind worms, either have two defenders, or have a sensor net up. Assuming equal morale, a mind worm attacking a unit in a base near a sensor will lose more often than it will win.
Building crawlers when you have just 3 formers out is premature.
I'd be happy to show you what Morgan on FM can do early on.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Building crawlers when you have just 3 formers out is premature.
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I don't necessarily agree unless you are referring to building of masses of crawlers. if you have any rainy tiles at all, a crawler can be a good early investment to speed base growth to get the next CP out.
Other than that I agree with your comments and find them applicable to any faction that can go planned. Morgan cannot.
My greatest dilike of a PS beeline remains the fact that you are YEARS and YEARS from crawlers.
Personally I will go directly to IA with a side trip only to centauri ecology ( its usual but if I have exceptionally good terrain I may delay this as well). Biogenetics can wait IMHO-- I want to be rushing rec tanks for 10% less minerals after all.
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mmontgomery
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I don't think delaying Recycling Tanks until after Planned is a good idea. The amount of resources you get from the first two bases for that length of time more than make up for the extra 4 minerals need to rush the Recycling Tanks before planned.
quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Colony pods cost 3 rows
Police cost 1 row, and take up support
Crawlers cost 3 rows
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Colony pods are only effectively 2 rows, since they provide a free row unless your support is too low. The point is you can get a colony pod and police for the cost of one crawler due to the free minerals from the CP.
quote:
Regarding Police vs Planned, most of the time you don't even get to pick which one, since Planned is on the IA beeline, and Police is not.
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The question is whether to delay the IA beeline to do the D:L beeline first. I was going by strategy guides which said to use FM/Wealth, so I was comparing this to PS. I could be that Planned/Wealth is better than either FM/Wealth or PS for the early game. I would have to do another experiment from the beginning to see.
quote:
After 2150, when dealing with mind worms, either have two defenders, or have a sensor net up. Assuming equal morale, a mind worm attacking a unit in a base near a sensor will lose more often than it will win.
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Great suggestion. So clearly Formers need to be a priority before then, even if forests are not critical, the sensors are.
quote:
I'd be happy to show you what Morgan on FM can do early on. |
Do you think you would use Free Market/Wealth, or would you use Planned/Wealth? Why don't you email me at mamontgoDONTYOUJUSTHATESPAM@earthlink.net. (Obviously omit the letters in caps.) I'll email you a save with the starting position and see how you play it for 40 turns.
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Zeiter
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Hmmm, a PS beeline...I like this new approach to the early game. It's about time that someone tried something different than the stereotypical beeline to IA.
And I could definitely see the benefit of going to PS early as Santiago. In that case, because of the +3 police, a scout essentially does the same thing as a rec commons, except you don't pay maintenance for it and it's likely that you won't be spending any minerals for support on it either with the +2 support rating.
As much as I like the early Morgan FM/wealth/crawler strategy, I have to admit that it is somewhat at the mercy of directed research and not getting placed near an agressive neighbor. If you try the same test with blind research, you'll notice that getting that straight beeline to IA is doubtful.
I think a fact that many are ignoring is the potential for finding AAs while running FM/wealth. The extra exploring under PS allows many more goodies from pod pops, such as ECs, facs completions, commlinks, AAs, etc. There's also a better chance of meeting a neighbor earlier and entering into a tech trading relationship, partly because the number of military units you'll have under PS will discourage a belligerent from messing with you just then. I'd say these goodies could almost compensate for the lack of funds for rush buying and the slower tech research. It just depends on how well you play it.
Notice that 3 AAs were found under the test with PS, and none were found under the test with FM/wealth. With 3 AAs, the faciton running PS could easily snag the HGP and easily throw a big monkey wrench into the FM/wealth player's plans.
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mmontgomery
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeiter
As much as I like the early Morgan FM/wealth/crawler strategy, I have to admit that it is somewhat at the mercy of directed research and not getting placed near an agressive neighbor. If you try the same test with blind research, you'll notice that getting that straight beeline to IA is doubtful.
... There's also a better chance of meeting a neighbor earlier and entering into a tech trading relationship, partly because the number of military units you'll have under PS will discourage a belligerent from messing with you just then. |
You must be psychic! You called it perfectly. I played another 20 turns with PS and FM, and Sister Miriiam came down from the NorthEast. With FM, I had to give up two techs immediately, and that was just to get a truce. Miriam would not accept a treaty. With PS, Miriam was positively cordial. We traded two techs (I was already researching IA, so the trades were welcome), and Miriam offered a treaty right off.
With PS, University and Morgan became pact brothers on turn 32. With FM, there was just a truce with Universiity, and that truce cost two techs.
So from my experiment, your comments are right on the money!
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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Well, with Morgan I'd be unable to use Planned, so I'd go Free Market/Wealth.
As far as diplomacy, I have noticed that AIs are nicer to those with large armies, but I tend to swat the AI anyway, no matter what I give it early on for peace. I am willing to give the AI just about anything that doesn't cost me (that is, tech trades and possibly vendetta against a common foe) to get what I want from it (in single player only, against other people I wouldn't want to expose my tech so much).
As far as a new approach to the early game, that would be welcome, but I don't think PS will turn out to be superior.
As far as blind research, you get what you get and you make the best. You can't beeline at all, but if you can get into Free Market, the rest of the techs come faster.
Rather than the AA count, I'd be interested in how many pods were popped in FM vs PS. That would give a less random assessment of how many AAs you might expect.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
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Techs: Go for formers first, then beeline to IA. Use the formers to build roads between bases and forests, except where a particular base won't have a 2 nutrient tile, in which case build one for it. I would space my bases 3 apart (two intervening tiles) maximally for turn advantage. You will find that you just don't need all those tiles, it will be better to have more bases sooner.
I usually wait until I get IA before I go FM, and go with Wealth and then FM when I have the money. This makes things a little easier to manage IMO, but either way is doable.
Rely on probes for defense. Probes come fairly early on your beeling to IA, and when you are running wealth they will have better morale than your military units. There are basically 3 types of probe units in the early game.
1) Probe Team - the standard team on a rover chassis. Use these for mobile defense against AI incursions, exploration of clear terrain and offense against the AI.
2) Armored Probe Team - a probe team on an infantry chassis with armor. These will defend better than the same type of armor on a miltary unit under wealth, and don't cost any support. They cost as much as standard probe teams.
3) Probe Garrison - these are unarmored probe teams on an infantry chassis. They are mainly used to defend your bases from enemy probes, but can be used to preempt enemy attacks by buying off enemy units adjacent to your base, or even a tile or two away if you have the road network in place. They are cheaper than standard probes, and like all probes cost no support.
In you game if I were running FM and had Wealth / Crawlers already and Zac came around I'd be happy because I'd have a prime opportunity to get some free techs and cheap units off of old probe weak Zac. You should have plenty of cash for this. Just subvert the units he send to threaten you and send them (with a few probes) back the way they came. You might have to halt at your borders due to your negative police rating, at which point you have a few options:
1) Switch out of FM and go for the gusto. Probe Zac for his techs, and then his bases. Buy the units he sends against you, or use previously purchased units to kill them. He will be the one who is begging for blood truce once you take a couple of bases from him.
2) Hold at your border, preferably at a point which gives you a nice advantage. Build sensors there to keep yourself ahead of the information game (and give your units a combat advantage. Buy his units or destroy them as you see fit.
3) Build toward Zac, thus extending your border toward him while otherwise expending little effort aside from your own previously laid plans to grow. He'll get weaker as he sends units into certain death, and you'll only be slightly inconvenienced by the relatively small amount of energy you need to hold him off. Once you feel that you are in a good position, go over to the offensive. Switch out of FM for a little while and smash him with your crawler boosted production. (Crawlers on forests crawling minerals, repeat until every base has 15 minerals. Take time to smell the early game SPs if you wish, especially HGP, WP and VW.)
The goal here is to turn Zac into your tech slave. Once he surrenders, give him back his bases so that he can better help you with your research, while you expand in another direction.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by mmontgomery
I don't think delaying Recycling Tanks until after Planned is a good idea. The amount of resources you get from the first two bases for that length of time more than make up for the extra 4 minerals need to rush the Recycling Tanks before planned.
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First of all MORGAN CAN'T GO PLANNED. I was talking about delaying getting biogenetics until after I have IA . .. the true comparison then isn't the minerals ( I meant to put a smily in that last line about the 10% reduction). I will rush rec tanks whenever I have the opportunity. So the comparison isn't the resources you get from the rec tanks versus the 4 minerals you save by waiting . . The true comparison would be:
The benefits of getting rec tanks and beginning rushing them at x date with a resulting delay in IA versus the benefits of an earlier wealth and crawlers. Its more math than I care to do since we would have to assume every aspect of the game BUt I can say this:
Going wealth costs 40 ec--ONE rec tanks will cost more than that alone
If we assume 6 bases:
you rush or build 6 rec tanks
My wealth setting will add enough energy to equate to the energy effect of your rec tanks
I rush or build 6 crawlers and have all of them crawl food or minerals-- either rainy or forested squares will lead to greater additions to resources than the rec tanks in that resource category
Plus the crawlers cost 27 minerals compared to 40 for a rec tanks. Even if we assume 3 minerals for additional support ( and thats not really appropriate here since we are comparing FM styles,) you have 60 ( 40 if you subtract off the cost of going wealth) additional minerals for other builds.
The pros and cons of this style
Pro- greater flexibility and ability to switch resources crawled and even which bases they are crawled to
Con- You need some available terrain to make this work and your production is more vulnerable
Neutral- more units gives more warning of attack but the units are vulnerable, although they can be armored for defense in place and can serve as support free defensive troops
Pro-- huge commerce income if you can make friends
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I don't always advocate IA before biogen but there are times when I do and it can work well. To brush it off because the resources from an early rec tanks are nice while true, is irrelevant. Going to biogen for tanks can delay IA by 10+ . That is significant. As I say, I do not claim it is the wrong way to go but I WOULD claim that going for IA ASAP is just as viable
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AndiD
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SOO of Morgan Industries, ACDG3
May 2004
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by mmontgomery
I played another 20 turns with PS and FM, and Sister Miriiam came down from the NorthEast. With FM, I had to give up two techs immediately, and that was just to get a truce. Miriam would not accept a treaty. With PS, Miriam was positively cordial. We traded two techs (I was already researching IA, so the trades were welcome), and Miriam offered a treaty right off.
With PS, University and Morgan became pact brothers on turn 32. With FM, there was just a truce with Universiity, and that truce cost two techs! |
What map size were you playing at? The PS approach might be something for smaller maps but will certainly lose out on larger maps since the badguys won't come calling that early. A few 0-2-1 probes against worms and infiltration, that's all you need then.
On a IA-Biogen beeline you don't WANT to trade tech before you get IA and after that only Biogen or Flex. To meet a faction at that time is nice, sure, but for only for a Treaty and commerce income (especially Morgan).
When you go out exploring with probe foils while you have HGP and maybe PTS you would be surprised how friendly all the people out there are to you since with two SPs, lots of tech and maybe lots of population you look strong on the power graph.
Tech trade there is welcome since you usually have more options to choose from than you like to and commerce is more important since you have bigger bases (= more income).
Once I have been for ~15 years in Dem/FM/Wealth and both Dee and Miri _wanted_ a Treaty when I met them first and that was with intense rivalry on! Miri wanted to trade ApplPhys in exchange for Gene Splicing beforehand. Dee wanted nothing. They were noncommital on first meeting but went seething quickly.
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mmontgomery
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I did my experiments on the standard map of Planet.
As for Rec Tanks first or after IA, rather than doing the math, I suggest just starting a game, save the starting postion, and playing it both ways, and seeing which start you like, just like I did with PS vs FM. This should give a pretty good indicator whether Morgan should research Biogen first or not.
I did not count the number of pods popped for each, but that would not be hard to do. When I get some time, I will check that. Also, with PS, I found the crashed Unity site, getting the location of all factions, mining laser, and copter. With FM, University found it first.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by mmontgomery
I did my experiments on the standard map of Planet.
As for Rec Tanks first or after IA, rather than doing the math, I suggest just starting a game, save the starting postion, and playing it both ways, and seeing which start you like, just like I did with PS vs FM. This should give a pretty good indicator whether Morgan should research Biogen first or not.
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That would give the answer for THAT MAP only. I think too many people get too rigid in their thinking. For instance , if I am cramped and have crappy arid land, I'll want the rec tanks . . . if I have a larger land area and have some rainy tiles, or accessible specials or even a decent size river, I might forgo the rec tanks for a while in favor of quicker crawlers and wealth.
As I pointed out, the combo of wealth and a crawler can add up to 3 extra resources. The downside is that needing IA, it takes a while to get started on this. But then again there are other tradeoffs if you go biogenetics as your earliest tech in that you delay FM or getting the ability to build NNs or the ability to build probes.
To me this game is all about tradeoffs-- while I advocate an early FM and IA beeline, I have played situations where another route made sense. I have problems fully embracing an early PS for morgan though since my playstyle against an AI would be to use my extra energy to probe away units. Also large numbers of undeveloped bases mean losing one is not really a crippling blow.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Clean police are certainly nice, but by then you can be running all specialists, and not need drone control at all. As a result, I only end up using clean police with factions who have Police >= -1 in their midgame builder SE settings - Yang and Deirdre for sure, and sometimes someone else. |
I was a little suprised you listed Yang as a clean police option--hmm-- I usually find support is so good for yang since you are running PS almost all the time, that its rare that I need to "clean' up many units. Some perhaps but its usually not a big deal ( its a cheap upgrade IIRC anyway).
Last edited by Flubber on 18-08-2004 at 03:10
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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Consider all the units you might make clean. Police (1p-1-1) are the single best option, as they are likely to live a long time, and only gain 1 row from becoming clean. Though Yang has good support (4/city), if you spend 2 on police, you only have 2 units left over. These must cover formers and military, before you start losing precious minerals (precious because of +3 industry). I find myself making more than 2 formers/city quite easily, and can hit 10+ in some cities. I view a mineral bonus on a rocky as 7 more formers.
When I can get clean police (which takes a while), I'm happy to be able to free up support slots for just 20 ECs apiece. This happens wholesale when I get Fusion Power and start raking in the energy. Later, I can clean up the formers, hopefully making them super at the same time, and for something like 40 ECs free up a support slot and effectively get another former.
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mmontgomery
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A lot of these suggestions are interesting (sending out probe foils, buying attacking University units with probes, probing University for tech, etc.) but all of these seem to be suggestions for a bit later in the game. I don't see this coming into play by turn 40, and probably not by turn 60. Also, probes are fine for dealing with University, but it costs 4x as much to deal with the Believers using probes, so this does not seem to be an ideal answer for Miriam coming in from the NE.
But really, what I am trying to get a handle on is exactly when do people think they should stop initial base expansion, switch some priority to terraforming/crawlers, defenses, etc.
One person suggested FM/Wealth forgetting about defense altogether at first, and forget about drones, just expand madly with CPs and rec tanks. So what if you have to make your first citizen a doctor. I went back and tried this strategy, and it was not half bad! I played 60 turns, and lost 3 bases and one CP to mind worms. At turn 40, I had 8 cities, 4 of which could only work their base square. (This was comparable to PS, except PS cities were working 3 squares each; but FM had a tech advantage.) By turn 60, even losing 4 prospective bases, I had 13 bases, each producing 1/2/7 resources. With this method of play, one started building formers and crawlers when cities were not able to directly make another CP, but had to wait for growth. Essentially, each city could make another CP at most once every 20 turns.
I have to say I was very uncomfortable having all of these vacant cities, but giving away the demanded techs seems to placate both University and the Believers.
But realistically, do most people stop at 6 bases at first (to avoid extra drones), and begin producing formers and crawlers once the CP for the 6th base is being produced, or do you build formers earlier, or do you continue building CPs past 6 before formers, or what? With my PS trial I was continuing to build CPs with my frontier cities, while my interioir citiies shifted to formers and a SP.
I would love to see more people apply their pet starting strategy to this starting position. So far only one person has requested the save. I would be happy to see the results of other people's strategies.
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16-08-2004 12:26
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