19-08-2004 04:22									#31
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If GoW had tanks, I could definitely see them attacking ND in an alliance with GS. This is GoW, remember.

However, you're right, it would be quite an unequal partnership. So it less likely.

	19-08-2004 09:42									#32
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Oh well, this is all speculation and does not change what we need to do...but it is interesting.

Are we agreed, in slowing our research by 2-turns, and going with the upgrade plan?

Leo

	19-08-2004 09:55									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I take it we all agree on slowing the research this turn (probably for two turns) and upgrading along the lines outlined by me above.

More info soon to come (save just arrived).

	19-08-2004 12:37									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have PMed Trip about the gold bug, we'll see what he says.

However, there were some important news this turn:

1) Rhothaerill reported an error on his side... he somehow forgot that some of the 120g upgrades they "needed" were actually caravels - which do not need to be upgraded. Means, Vox do not need any more upgrade gold from us. Just the research funding around 100gpt. That's 480 extra gold for us.

2) GS traded Atomic Theory to someone (most probably GoW), as the cost went down 10 more percent. That's 480 beakers we do not need to invest into the AT research.

3) Flight discovered this turn. It's cost has gone down 10%. I'd expect it to be down 10 more percent next turn due to GoW trading it to GS (probably for Atomic Theory).

4) We have remained weak vs. GS despite upgrading half of our rifles to infantry.

	19-08-2004 17:15									#35
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Reflecting the new info (no more gold for Vox upgrades, lower AT research cost), I have redone the cashflow analysis:

The first number in brackets is the number of beakers accumulated into the AT research (current cost: 3840).

(790) 1120AD: 1930g, at +230gpt/+790bpt (2098g+233gpt-400g sent to Vox in 1110AD)
--------------: Vox upgrade needs satisfied

Scenario A: no change
(1580) 1130AD: 1930g+230gpt=2160g, 100g sent to Vox
(2370) 1140AD: 2160g+230gpt-100g=2290g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: IA finished, spies planted with GS & GoW, ~400g
(3160) 1150AD: 2290g-400g+230gpt-100g=2020g, 100g sent to Vox
(3950) 1160AD: 2020g+230gpt-100g=2150g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: Atomic Theory discovered, starting Electronics

Means that in 1160AD, we'd have ~1000g to upgrade whatever we'd need. Plus, Electronics will be 4320-10%=3888 beakers. A 4t Electronics research will require 70%-80% science for all 4t (unless GS trades it, which now seems possible). That's +70gpt to -80gpt, while having to support Vox with about 100gpt to keep them at 100% research (Flight to be discovered in 1200AD). It's not as bad as it was one turn ago, but we'd still be able to upgrade only the rifles, no cannons.

Scenario B: 1t slowdown
( 790) 1120AD: science cut to 10% -> +1000gpt/+130bpt
( 920) 1130AD: 1930g+1000gpt=2930g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: science upped to 40% -> +530gpt/+530bpt
(1710) 1140AD: 2930g+530gpt-100g=3360g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: IA finished, spies planted with GS & GoW, ~400g
--------------: science upped to 60% -> +230gpt/+790bpt
(2500) 1150AD: 3360g-400g+230gpt-100g=3090g, 100g sent to Vox
(3290) 1160AD: 3090g+230gpt-100g=3220g, 100g sent to Vox
(3820) 1170AD: 3220g+230gpt-100g=3350g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: Atomic Theory discovered, starting Electronics

Means that in 1160AD, we'd effectively have ~2120g. We'd still be short of ~480g (i.e. 4 cannon upgrades). And that 4t Electronics is going to need some gold to cover the temporary deficit...

Scenario C: 2t slowdown
( 790) 1120AD: science cut to 10% -> +1000gpt/+130bpt
( 920) 1130AD: 1930g+1000gpt=2930g, 100g sent to Vox
(1050) 1140AD: 2930g+1000gpt-100g=3830g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: IA finished, spies planted with GS & GoW, ~400g
--------------: science upped to 50% -> +370gpt/+670bpt
(1720) 1150AD: 3830g-400g+370gpt-100g=3700g, 100g sent to Vox
(2390) 1160AD: 3700g+370gpt-100g=3800g, 100g sent to Vox
(3060) 1170AD: 3800g+370gpt-100g=4070g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: science upped to 60% -> +230gpt/+790bpt
(3850) 1180AD: 4070g+230gpt-100g=4200g

Means that in 1160AD, we'd effectively have 2700g to upgrade whatever we'd need. That's actually more than we need to upgrade all cannons and rifles (2600g). And we'd have the gold to fund a deficit Electronics research.

The 2t slowdown option now looks perfect - but even the 1t slowdown scenario looks doable now... since we will most likely not spend whole 400g on spies and Vox should be done with Flight at least one, but most probably two turns earlier (because of Flight being known to GoW & GS). Means we will not have such a deficit while doing the 4t Electronics...

Again - check the numbers, please... but I believe that the 1t slowdown option is now quite viable. A difference of 4 cannon upgrades does not seem to be important enough to balance a 1t research delay.

	19-08-2004 19:01									#36
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how about doing a 20% or 30% research after one turn of 10%? This way we could keep our options open and decide on the last turn to finish AT in one turn (upping the slider to 70%-80%) or gather some more gold, finishing it in 2 turns.

We would keep the gold in our coffers in the meantime and use it for one fast turn of research or spend it on upgrades if we need to.

Last edited by Tiberius on 19-08-2004 at 19:34

	19-08-2004 19:09									#37
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That's an interesting idea, I will look into it later today.

	19-08-2004 19:38									#38
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Unless I'm mistaken, we will also finish some universities in the meantime, so one last turn of 70% or 80% should not be a problem to finish AT.

We would gain this way 3 or 4 more turns to decide what to do, while not having to worry about the lack of money for upgrades.

	19-08-2004 22:48									#39
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Tibi's plan sounds pretty sound. If the numbers work, I say go with it

	20-08-2004 03:04									#40
	Remove this text

Alright, here is the final plan for the next few turns (code-named Case Tibi )

The first number in brackets is the number of beakers accumulated into the AT research (current cost: 3840).

(790) 1120AD: 1236g, at +998gpt/+129bpt

Case Tibi: 1t slowdown with a safety option
( 920) 1130AD: 1236g+1000gpt=2240g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: science upped to 20% -> +840gpt/+260bpt
(1180) 1140AD: 2240g+840gpt-100g=2980g, 100g sent to Vox
--------------: IA finished, spies planted with GS & GoW, ~400g
--------------: science upped to 60% -> +230gpt/+800bpt
(1980) 1150AD: 2980g-400g+230gpt-100g=2710g, 100g sent to Vox
(2780) 1160AD: 2710g+230gpt-100g=2840g, 100g sent to Vox

Depending on the situation, we will be able to either go up to 80% (-80gpt/+1060bpt) and finish AT in 1170AD, or insert 1 extra turn at 10% and then go back to 60%, finishing AT in 1180AD with loads of extra cash.

This gives us cash enough (1700+g) to upgrade all cannons and few more infantries immediately if needed. Extra gold to upgrade infantries could either come from that extra slow turn or, in case of an imminent threat, from the base 1000g.

	20-08-2004 11:11									#41
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I vote for Case Tibi

	20-08-2004 18:37									#42
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Case Tibi... sounds like something you'd pick up after a bad insect bite in the jungle

Regardless, I'd vote for that, too

	20-08-2004 20:18									#43
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Yes vote for Case Tibi.

New Proposal - Briefcase Leo
Just prior to sinking the GS Transport, we mass moon the enemies.

Note: In case "moon" does not translate. We all drop our pants, bend over, and show them our back side.

	20-08-2004 20:35									#44
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Will that require a photo?

	21-08-2004 01:07									#45
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Note: In case "moon" does not translate. We all drop our pants, bend over, and show them our back side.

Yeah, saw that in a movie! :

	21-08-2004 10:53									#46
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Well now we got the important issues sorted what about our propaganda machine - Democracy games are nothing without them and as we expect war it would be appropiate to have some speeches ready before the inevitable war of words.
What should we do? mooning is one option, what else?

	21-08-2004 22:22									#47
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Mooning is as sophisticated as I get.

	23-08-2004 15:59									#48
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We need to start a program of denial...

"There are no weapons here..."

"We are crushing the GS forces on the beaches!" (As a GS tank drives past in the background)

	23-08-2004 16:33									#49
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So we are going to play 'al sharaf'.
History shows us to be a isolationist country that is percieved to be ruled by a small elite group, an oligarchy.
Nobody really knows anything about our culture, including us I believe.
We are known to be traders, supposibly benevolent (proven by the amensty given to Vox), and that we are peaceful but ocassionally meddle on the world stage. This in turn makes us seem slightly manipulative and selfserving eg: ' they only let vox on their land to serve as a vassal state"

Now i don't know how the war is going to pan out but I propose we play the evil team who have been plotting all this time to unleash some HUGE master plan and not nesscarily the space shipl. So once GS or GOW or even ND attacks we unleash our mighty fury and become utterly merciless against our opponents- attacking us will be like open the pandoras box - without the hope.

	23-08-2004 18:01									#50
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This sounds good! I wish it was true *sigh*

	24-08-2004 00:02									#51
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Yeah, wishful thinking... not sure if others would buy it though...

	24-08-2004 09:22									#52
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we could buy the armies of evil on credit

	28-08-2004 03:26									#53
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Where do you think they will land?

One possibility (if they don't try the Vox thing) is the on the coal mountain W of Invoice, threatening Invoice and Panama Vox in the same time. Having Invoice or Panama Vox would allow them access to our inner sea (Panama Bay or whatever the name is), which would be extremly bad for us (especially if GoW tries a stunt with Port Hammer or Castlea). So I'd certainly fortify something on that mountain (and build a fortress).

Coming from E or N would be too much of a detour (too many turns to reach us)

They will probably kill 3 or 4 of our pickets first, to make us "blind". Hopefully we will have some backup navy in place until then.

	28-08-2004 03:32									#54
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The coal mountain wouldn't give them access to Panama Vox because of the hills. But it would put them in Tank range of Invoice.

Considering the far south and north are where our pickets get stretched a little thin, I think those extremes are probably a good bet.

	28-08-2004 03:40									#55
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well with 30 tanks at least , I don't think they'll worry where they land. Especially if they don't know much about our terrain. ASll though I would try and attack where it hurts the most and probably veer towards the capital.

	28-08-2004 03:40									#56
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True about Panama Vox. However they could land the biggest stack on the mountain, and a smaller stack on the nearby hill. Nevertheless, Invoice would be much better for them than Panama Vox.

As for the far south and north: our north is just too far for GS. It'd take more than 10 turns for them to get there, I think. They could try the south, I agree, but they don't win so much attacking there, especially strategically speaking. Invoice is just so much more closer for their reinforcements.

	03-09-2004 00:31									#57
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Don't you think that there are a bit too many GoW destroyers in the east? A simple picket network would not justify so many destroyers.
Better keep an eye on them.

	03-09-2004 18:39									#58
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quote: We have received the save and we will keep it a while I guess. There are certain reasons for the delay I hope it won't last long.

Darekill posted that in the main forum. Shall we let the wild speculation begin?

	03-09-2004 18:54									#59
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Whatever seems or will seem to be going on, I am not going to believe ND is the target until they start losing their core cities.

At first, I thought ND could have perceived our transports moving out from Crossing last turn as a threat - but they are too far from their territory. So it's probably not it. Must be something else.

	03-09-2004 21:54									#60
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Wow... you know what would be incredibly sneaky? If they faked a war with ND, then had ND beg us for assistance, and once we made a move to help out, all three hit us at once.

Of course, the counter to that is that they may actually target ND because we don't have tanks yet. What would we really do to help out ND? Send a bunch of infantry over, sacrificing our own security?