18-08-2004 01:52									#1
	important decision on espionage! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

read this message from Darekill first

Okay, so in 11 turns we could get espionage from ND, at the cost of one tech we'd like (we still have navigation and communism which we can share... especially the latter would be nice to give to them). When taking into account our invasion in 13 turns, this is too late, as we don't have time to build the CIA.

However, there is a second thing, which we might take advantage of: they want to declare war to us, to get rid of their bug. Fine, it could help in our bug as well. And, more importantly, we could use this time to start a palace prebuild, timed perfectly to build the CIA... in 11 turns. Get a spy into Lego the same turn, and declare war.

I'm not sure if we can do this: it would make use of the situation which we try to circumvent our bugs with. However, we would again lose money in the process to keep everyone happy, so frankly, I don't mind if we try to get some things back in return. Starting a palace prebuild might be a bit cheesy, but I don't consider it an exploit.

Any thoughts, including comments on if we don't want to pay ND to speed up the research?

DeepO

	18-08-2004 02:47									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Use of war to get rid of the bug, then Palace prebuild and trade for Communism sounds good to me. Any consessions you can get for the "hassle" would be great, but not necessary since we will be benefiting from it as well (which they don't need to know ).

The Palace and other Wonders have been used for prebuilds in this game already? Lego almost certainly used the Palace for the Pyramids IIRC. No problem with that.

I wouldn't want to pay for speeding up research as it doesn't do much good to get it any earlier. We won't want to try and plant a spy until the last moment so as to not give Lego any extra warning if we fail (no idea how espionage works in PBEM admittedly). And the invasion might be delayed a few turns anyways.

	18-08-2004 13:24									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

main advantage for us, when doing this, would be that we can prebuild the palace, which is unavailable under mobilization. I'm not sure how many shields the CIA costs (400?), but SA seems a good city to build it, as it can reach little over 50spt without the mob bonus. However, SA would also be the prime reason why we would want to get rid of our bug: it loses some 25 spt currently.

Basically, instead of solving the bug on our side, we use that opportunity to start the CIA early... after it completes, we've got the same problem in SA.

DeepO

	18-08-2004 16:45									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

sounds good to me

	18-08-2004 17:25									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

me too

	18-08-2004 17:57									#6
	Got spare money?

That seems more or less decided, then. I'll try to work out a time schedule to time the war... will try that when playing next save. We'll have to wait for the tank in SA to complete, but we can play a little with the eta of radio (it has to coincide with peace in order for us to not loose a turn of mob)

DeepO

	19-08-2004 02:06									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In case you want another vote........

	21-08-2004 00:42									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

hum, we need to decide what we're going to offer ND, as they already have communism... sneaky bastards: letting us choose between either an expensive tech, or one very crucial (MT)

DeepO

	22-08-2004 15:18									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

So, what are we going to offer ND for espionage? They even agree with Navigation, but that tech alone would not do good to our relation (which is going very smoothly lately, I have to say).

One thing we could do is e.g. offer them navigation, and a 500 gold discount on a future tech deal. That price may seem a bit steep (espionage only costs 2400b, IIRC), however it would keep them as friends, and in the mean time compensate them for the extra lux: we're some 8 turns into our lux deal, and they're going to replace that with a new 20-turn deal.

ideas, please? We could of course also offer them either Elo or MT, but in both cases the cost to us would be bigger, as otherwise ND would pay more than 500 gold to receive the tech.

DeepO

	23-08-2004 07:54									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

I wouldn't mind being a bit gracious and giving a useful tech. If/When Lego is dealt with, it's going to be a 2v1 deal...

	23-08-2004 21:17									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I don't mind being gracious either, however electronics e.g. costs 4800 beakers, or 960 gold to ND. That's nearly 500 gold more then the Navigation + 500 gold I proposed.

Do you really see a chance we could get between GoW and ND? If so, 500 gold would be a bargain...

DeepO

	23-08-2004 22:50									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That is the issue to me, can we expect them to fight each other or us. The tech deal, I am not losing sleep over, in terms of our getting the short end, more about helping someone that we will have to fight.

ND will not team up with us, so it is GOW with us or against us. MZ will go which ever way makes the most sense. Do they fear the skills GS has shown more than the risk of a civ on their land mass?

I don't know, but I do think I would worry about someone next to me the most. The reason is that I may not be able to know or anticipate when they will come for me. I would not like that sword over my head and would look to get an ally to stomp them.

Then worry about GS. Of course we first must get past Lego.